BRe style rig on open BR, and opinions on BR jibs?

[maxr]

I'm thinking hard about an open BayRaider. My current cunning plan (!) is developing, and includes a fully battened carbon Bermudan rig (BRe style) and, if possible, a conventionally sheeted jib (maybe with a whisker pole on a track). I'd appreciate the benefit of experience on the following questions, now that the BRe rig has been available for a while:

* How do you depower a fully battened BRe style main if it gets gusty and you don't have time to reef or drop it - halyard, outhaul and cunningham?
* Is a conventionally sheeted jib available on an open BR? I just don't fancy the self tacker for several reasons including complication, rig tensioning, and probably some blind prejudice
* If so, does the conventional jib attach to the BR stemhead, and does the conventional jib version come with a dinghy style forestay - so the jib luff tensions the rig, and the forestay stops the mast falling backwards when you take the jib off?
* Can the conventional jib sheet back to somewhere about the rowlock position, so you can easily tack it singlehanded?
* Does a conventional jib equipped BR/BRe point higher than one with a self tacker?

Thanks, Max

[Graham W]

Max,

I can answer some of your questions, on the jib anyway.  I have both the self-tacker and a conventional jib (photos below). My conventional jib is flown off a short bowsprit, so that it has roughly the same area as the self-tacker. There is also room for a forestay and the jib is on a furler.  On a gunter rig, the forestay is prevented from obstructing the top swivel with a wire forestay guard.  Sheeting needs to be fairly central - it is brought back to blocks on adjustable short tracks on the foredeck and from there through fairleads to cam cleats near the forward oarlocks. BRe's can sport longer bowsprits and appreciably bigger (Mk2) conventional jibs. I'm told that this isn't possible with the BR20, something to do with the position of the sheets.

Now for true confessions time.  The conventional jib is a difficult beast to control solo in any sort of wind and the sheets tend to tangle with the cleats on the mast when tacking.  I couldn't detect any difference in performance to the self-tacker, either better pointing or greater speed, so have reverted to the latter.  The self-tacker is easier to goosewing on a run. Others may have different experiences!

The self-tacker's leech tension can be adjusted with a topping lift to the back of the jib boom - useful for better performance in light winds.  And it is so easy to use that it frees you up to concentrate on other aspects of your sailing, like winning races (Gladys won Sail Caledonia with a self-tacker in 2015 and Turaco came second this year, the common feature being a demon helmsman).

Have you been out on a BR20 or BRe?  There's nothing like having a trial sail.

[maxr]

Thanks Graham - if you don't notice any noticeable difference to the performance or the pointing, then an exceptionally average sailor like me isn't going to. I can see that the self tacker has other advantages - like not having to find a way to work conventional sheets through a sprayhood. Is it possible to lead the self tacker sheet back to somewhere about midships for solo sailing?

I've yet to sail a BR or BRe - but I don't know I have much choice. I've examined all the 19'-23' alternatives I can find. For me (I sit the same height as someone 6'2" - 6'3") they all have some combination of the disadvantages of cramped cabins, heavy towing weight, slow sailing, too much string, slow rigging, non self draining cockpit, too much treewood (particularly in the masts), gaff rig (personal preference), inboard engines (big maintenance hike and eventual smell of diesel),  small cockpits, or they won't take the ground flat. 26' and above are great as you can have headroom and heads, but for me, they're more maintenance complication and expense than I want for estuary and short inshore coastal day trips.

Any other views on jibs, or fully battened rig vs. gunter?

Max

[Graham W]

Is it possible to lead the self tacker sheet back to somewhere about midships for solo sailing?

That's the standard arrangement - back past a sheave through the middle of the midships oarlock base and into a camcleat.  Because of the balance of the jib boom arrangement, the self tacker can be adjusted with hardly any effort from the tiller and from both sides.  You need to try it to appreciate it. The mizzen sheets are led forward to the same place but need a bit more effort to sheet in in strong winds.  See bottom right of the attached photo - red = jib sheet, black = mizzen sheet

[maxr]

Thanks Graham, that looks good. I guess if necessary, it might be possible to double back the mizzen sheet and add a block at some point (like Hawk 20 jibs sheets) to pull twice the length of string at the user end for half the effort.

[Graham W]

It's probably not necessary as it's only a small sail. More than the standard (2010 vintage) mechanical advantage is more helpful on the mainsheet. See http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1321.msg9495.html#msg9495

[Jonathan Stuart]

I'm a big fan of the self tacker on my BRe. I've sailed alongside BRe's rigged with a conventional jib and didn't notice any difference in performance or pointing. So the benefits of the self-tacker when short tacking, etc, mean that I think this is the best option unless you want a jib to give a job for crew! The jib boom also means you can get ample luff tension without a winch, etc, and, as Graham said, a topping lift means you can adjust jib outhaul without affecting luff tension. The jib boom also "poles" the job out nicely when running. Matt's use of a jib boom is a very clever part of the boat and I think shouldn't be dismissed just because it's unusual.

[maxr]

Thanks again, guys. Do I understand, Jonathan, that you put a topping lift down the leech of the jib to the aft end of the jib boom? Perhaps that would fix one of the things I was concerned about with the self tacker. It looks like without that topping lift, increasing tension on the jib halyard would try to tilt the aft end of the jib boom down and straighten the jib leech out - which you may or may not want.

Does anyone know whether with the BRe Bermudan battened rig, you can flatten the main to depower it if you use enough cunningham, halyard and outhaul?

Thanks for the link to the 4:1 mainsheet topic. The Hawk 20 has a 6:1 purchase on the 13sqm mainsail as below. Yes, there's a lot of string in the cockpit when beating, and a fair bit of friction. However it comes in handy when a gust threatens to put the gunwale under, and you can still spill wind from the main with one hand. Max

[Jonathan Stuart]

Yes, what you described is how the topping lift works. There's a Library article that describes it in more detail:

http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?p=1087

Yes, the BRe's main sail can be tuned using the cunningham and outhaul, etc. Actually, my BRe didn't come with a cunningham so I got Swallow Yachts to fit one and I described it in this article:

http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?p=867

I'm not sure whether a cunningham is now standard. If it's not then it's a simple job for the yard to fit one.

[Graham W]

Here's Jonathan's topping lift, slightly adapted for a BR20 http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1217.msg8610.html#msg8610

4:1 mechanical advantage on the mainsheet ought to be enough.  I can use mine one-handed and an accurate amount of letting go in gusts is quick and easy.  If I am sitting out on the gunwale, I may also sometimes need to use my foot to help the sheet to lock back into the cam cleat on the lower block arrangement.

[maxr]

Thanks all, that's great, and has taken up my reservations about the self tacker. I guess the rig tension on a BR/BRe is nothing like as high as my old Hawk, then. The Hawk manual instructs you to use the sheet winch and tension it as hard as is practicable, pretty much till something creaks.

The Swallow catalogue appears to suggest that the conventional sheeted jib has to be used if you want an assymetric on a BRe. Is that the same on the BR? Dunno if I'd want an assymetric (large flimsy sails might provide expensive mishandling opportunitities), but that would be useful to know just in case.

Max

[Nicky R]

We have an asymmetric on our BRe with the jib boom. We fly the spinnaker from our bowsprit. We've got BRe number 1, so it's likely that things are a bit different, but it would be worth speaking to Matt to see whether he could do the bowsprit and asymmetric as an option with the self-tacking jib. I've attached a photo so you can see how it works. (The jib boom doesn't rest on the deck now, as we've fitted the topping lift.) If you want to see more pictures of it in action, look at the pictures taken on this year's raid. (They're linked fromon the events page thread.)

[Jonathan Stuart]

It's worth remembering that the self-tacking jib is the original jib for both BR and BRe and the asymmetric was designed to work with this. The "conventional" job was a later arrangement for those that wanted one. As far as I am aware, the asymmetric works with boat jibs without any issues.