Warning to BR20 sailors; flooding of stowage compartments when

[Llafurio]

Interesting points 'Llafurio'.

In elevating the stowage locker floors you will be creating an additional albeit small buoyancy chamber below them. Any concerns regarding the behaviour of the boat on it's side in the event of a capsize? Also, do you have any reference to the specific type of diaphragm valves you are proposing to use? ...

Alan,

may I suggest you ask manufacturer SwY directly. It is really their problem. They are aware of the problem since 9 years, and five years ago they said they needed to do testing re the effects of sealed lockers on the righting from inversion by a singlehander. They should be able to advise and help you reliably by now.

I am not recommending customers to sort out safety relevant design shortcomings at their own creativity and their own expense.

However, if you send me your email address through a private message on this website, I will send you what information I have so far, and the make of the suitable non-return valves. CR

[James Lowden]

I have been reading with interest this set of problems and may have a possible solution.
'Transom Flaps' fitted low down in the locker lids.
They would be a simple cutout with mylar or plastic covering it and a v. light bungy, if required, to prevent it flapping around. This provides a simple one way valve which, depending on the size can let out as much water(or air) as required.
In the event of large water ingress into the locker it would allow fast or instant draining(depending on its size).
In the event of capsise it would also alow air to escape and a much faster asymetric filling of the 'sealer modified' locker. Hope this helps.
My experience comes from emptying a half full Merlin Rocket in a matter of seconds!!.

[Llafurio]

Hi Jim,

thanks for the "transom flap" idea. You obviously understood the problem. I know them flaps from my 420 / 470 days. They are super against short blasts of water trying to push in from astern without much pressure, but I think their seal is too spongy so they would let through too much into the leeward locker if there is water from the cockpit pushing in for minutes on end. And any water entering will then immediately and unbailably get trapped there in that deep lowermost pocket under the cockpit sole level. So the non-return seal diaphragm must work very good and very thoroughly.
There are well sealing non-return valves on the market which can also be plugged shut when not required.

[James Lowden]

You are right about the Mylar ones being to flimsy for this job, but they can be made of anything and much stronger, I have seen some Carbon Fibre ones!. As regards sealing properly, they can be made to seal perfectly, by application of some sealant to the boat surface adding grease or non stick to the flap and then closing it(I've done it). It would not remove all water though, if the locker base is below the cockpit sole, but it could well be enough to make a big difference in difficult circumstances and cost very little to fit.

[johnguy]

I am greatly enjoying sailing my Bre this year. Twice in the gusty conditions I have managed to take a green one over the lee side, and both times got a good dose of water in the lee locker. It hasn't been a danger issue, more a nuisance having to bail it out once back at the berth. Plus everything in the locker gets a good soaking. I look forward to hearing from Matt what the retrofit solution is to keep the lockers dry in the event of taking a sea.

[Alan M]

I agree Johnguy. I think this is not a simple issue and I'm not convinced that we have seen the full recommended solution from Matt on this Forum. (I have hunted for it). The suggested mods to the Locker Lid seem to have universal support but represent only part of the solution. Different seals are in use and experiences and views are mixed. Other solutions technical have also been offered, we could really use Swallow Yachts latest position on all of this.
Alan

[Peter Cockerton]

Contacted SY this morning on another matter (bit of gelcoat repair) Jamie very helpful, enquired as to whether Matt was aware of current discussion reference water ingress into lockers, Matt on holiday for a couple of weeks, Jamie will raise this with him on his return.

Peter Cockerton

[Michael Rogers]

Not my problem, and this suggestion may be greeted with the forum equivalent of an embarrassed silence following a crass comment. However, here goes -

How about 'filling' the lockers with clear plastic containers (number and size to be worked out according to the sort/size of stuff which gets stowed there) with water-resistant lids? If the idea were a go-er, Matt might even be able to get some done 'bespoke', to minimise loss of locker space. Contents would be visible and kept dry, and  slosh-water in the locker would be minimal - just remove containers and dry locker out as necessary after sailing. No seals or locker/locker lid re-design needed.

Biggest problem might be getting Llafurio approval.....

[Graham W]

Michael,

Before I installed bulb seals, I used to fill my lockers with big boxes from these people http://www.reallyusefulproducts.co.uk/uk/.  I still use a few much smaller ones to keep things tidy, although the lids seem to go brittle over time.  The company makes boxes in a large number of shapes, sizes and colours, at a price.  However, it's a pain removing big boxes to sponge out the bottom of the locker every time it ships water, so prevention is the best strategy.

One handy helpful hint (H3):  if, like me, you're foolish enough to sail in a way that risks inverting your BR, make sure that items that really must stay dry (eg automatically inflating lifejackets, spare batteries) are stowed in your starboard locker.  Anything in your port locker will get soaked through when recovering from inversion.

[Ape Ears]

Michael,

I have employed a similar principle following the naval tradition of my late father. As a shipwright on HMS Glasgow he shared the duty of 'bulling the teapot', ie swilling the nearly empty rum kegs with water to extract the last dregs, known as 'bull',a much inferior drink. I promise I am not taking the proverbial.

My big brother, also Michael (not taking the Micky), would bring home plastic canisters one foot cubed (nearly put my foot in it) which had previously contained sherry, from the off licence where he worked in Grimsby.
After the canisters had been duly swilled and the contents consumed in the naval tradition of 'sucking the monkey', the containers were redeployed in an early example of recycling as six 'buoyancy bags' in my 'Gremlin' dinghy.

The moral of the story is that you may get tipsy, but you can still float.

Should I be worried as 'Craic' has no seal to the 'Swallows Nest' side compartments?

Kind regards,
Andrew

[Tim Riley]

As a member of the Turtle club (and one of those who have recovered successfully without help), I would just like to point out that if you are getting water over the side and you are not water ballasted you are perilously close to the point of no return. If you are water ballasted then its high time you shortened the sails. Having sailed predominantly with water ballast since the swimming experience I have taken very little water on board and got even less in the compartments and yes we have been out in the rough. Yes I know that the BRe I now have has more freeboard than my old BR20 but the crucial difference and in effect safety feature is the rig. The main problem with the BR20 is the Gaff rig - switch to the Bermudan and you can reef in about 30secs. Because it is easy you tend to do it rather than pressing on into worse weather with too much sail - this will probably save more water getting into your compartments than any fancy seals!

[Alan M]

Whilst I agree with all of that Tim, I would add the following point. Using the water ballast certainly increases the stiffness of the boat and adds the reassurance of self-righting ability. But it also results in the boat sitting lower in the water and a reduction of freeboard of around (I think) three inches. This combined with the increased inertia of the boat makes it more susceptible to waves breaking over the gunwhale in the kind of steep chop that is characteristic of the Solent (for example).

I would have expected that water to find it's way safely through the drains and into the self draining cockpit. However some finds it's way into the lockers (at least it does on my BR20) and if you are out in these conditions for some time, this can become a problem. There is a modification to the locker lids documented in this forum which is now standard on new Bayraiders and which I need carry out soon on my 2010 version. I am also awaiting further guidance on seals and possibly drains from Matt so I know what other modifications to carry out.

[jonno]

An interesting debate.  Tim Riley's suggestion that we should be focusing on the rig rather than the seals is thought-provoking.  Is there another 'non-seal' argument though – one that others have hinted at?

Lara provides a photograph of 'Turaco' sailing in a very strong wind.  Despite the conditions (and despite the boat having a lightweight crew), the boat's pretty flat.  And doesn't flood.  In contrast, elsewhere in the thread, there's 'you are sitting high on windward' when water floods in.  Is this a clue?  Rather than seal design or some other design issue, is it down to the way the boat is sailed?  Flat like a dinghy or heeled like a yacht?

I still like Tim's argument though.  On several occasions I've been caught out with too much of my gunter sail up.

[Graham W]

John,

I can't remember the last time I was called "lightweight".  Well not in terms of avoirdupois anyway!

The rapid change in conditions on the afternoon of Lara's photo caught me off guard. Despite appearances and despite best intentions, we dipped our gunwales several times during the worst gusts.  We had up to 37 knots apparent on the beam.  I was playing the mainsheet to spill wind like our lives depended on it.  We shipped huge amounts of water from spray and from whole waves into the cockpit but because we were going so fast, the self bailers in the sump got rid of it fairly quickly.

Addressing Tim's points, we were too close to the lee shore to stop and put the second reef in.  With hindsight and having had lots of practice since then, we should have dropped the main and carried on under jib and mizzen.  Unlike nearly everyone else, we couldn't drop all sail and rely on the outboard to get us home - we had my gutless Torqeedo on the back.

I know that I'm sounding like a cracked record but bulb seals in conjunction with the lid corner cut-outs stopped all but a cupful of water from getting into the leeward locker.  Without those modifications, this would have happened several times in a few minutes: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Utx5lk57TU8.

[johnguy]

I'm a cautious sailor and always ready to reef, but there is no way to sail a BRe offshore in any sort of gusty conditions without sometimes getting a slop over the side. It is only a big dinghy after all. So the lockers should either be wet, ie they let in water but have drains, or dry, in which case they don't let in water. With the flat neoprene seals as supplied in my newbuild from last year the lockers are neither. They let in water and don't drain. It is clearly a design and build issue, not an operational matter. It would be nice if Matt found some seals that keep the lockers dry and let us all know so we could retrofit if we wish.