Warning to BR20 sailors; flooding of stowage compartments when

[Llafurio]

Sorry, I did not want to, but this is serious, I just have to speak up.:

In heavy sea and wind conditions, the leeward BR20 stowage compartment can -will- flood. The considerable extra water then destabilises the boat further to leeward, and things get more hairy then. Be warned. 

 

[Matt Newland]

Dear Llafurio,
This can happen when the boat is heeled to such a degree that water comes in the cockpit, as you say, in heavy wind or sea conditions. We have made some changes to the design to improve the drainage speed (cutting the bottom corners off the lockers) and to improve the seal around the cockpit locker top. We are actually in the process of road testing a new rubber seal from Italy which will be retro fittable onto all BR20/BRes if it proves, as I hope, to be more effective than the existing arrangement seal.
I will keep you all posted here.
Matt

[Jonathan Stuart]

The following forum topic is worth reading because it describes this problem and the eventual solution found to work by Llafurio and others:

http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,414.msg2212.html#msg2212

My 2012 BRe had the corner cut-outs Matt described and I found this allowed sufficient free-draining such that virtually no water entered the locker even in the most extreme circumstances. In one hairy situation last year while beating in a F6, the mainsheet became jammed (a freak occurrence) and our leeward gunwale was sufficiently below the water such that water poured (literally) over the BRe's raised coaming. The channel around the locker and the corner cut-outs worked as intended and no water of any consequence ended-up in the locker, let alone enough to cause any stability issues (which would have to be a significant amount of water).

Perhaps if the locker lids didn't have the cut-outs the situation would have been different. But with them I found the drainage works fine. I believe these cut-outs have been standard for some time but locker lids can be easily modified if required.

[Graham W]

I prefer the bulb seals to the adhesive neoprene strips, both described in the ancient thread referred to by Jonathan.  The bulbs tend to stay in place better.

I have been caught out in horrendous conditions in my BR20 a couple of times, with whole green waves shipped over the gunwales and the cockpit sole awash until cleared by the self bailers.  Thanks to the locker corner cut-outs and the bulb seals, I had a cupful of water in the leeward locker on both occasions.  The skipper may have been unstable but the boat wasn't. Under normal conditions (F6 and lots of spray), the lockers remain bone dry.

[Llafurio]

FYI, it was I who first "invented" & introduced the stowage lid cut off sides and corners to the BRs, They do help against water intake in "normal" conditions, but they alone do NOT prevent the compartment flooding in really bad ones.

Then came the neoprene seals, but they are unreliable, and, worse, if they work, they disable the boat from being re-rightable from a full turtle by a singlehander. I strongly advise against seals for that reason.
And BTW, my own BR did not come with any seals, as many other BRs do not have them, and on my younger BRe the neoprene seals fitted had moved from their proper seats through adhesive smear after one season. They are obsolete now.

The fact and truth of the matter is that the stowage compartments can -and will- flood in bad conditions, and will then diminish the seaworthyness of the boat when you need that most.
This is no idle chitchat, I have made this experience twice, last time yesterday. Don't tell me anybody "This does not happen".

The warning stands. Heed it.

[Lara]

I can second what Graham said, last year we got caught out in F8/9 conditions, as you'll see from the pic the boat was heeling right over due to the wind with water sheeting in over the gunwhales - the conditions were awful (I have never been so wet or full of adrenaline in my life!!) but we made it back to the harbour with no dire flooding in the lockers. 

[Graham W]

FYI, it was I who first "invented" & introduced the stowage lid cut off sides and corners to the BRs

FYI and not that it really matters, the locker corner cut off remedy was "invented" not by you but as a cooperative effort by Simon Knight (his riveting video of the inside of his locker being flooded) and Guy Rossey. 

Then came the neoprene seals, but they are unreliable, and, worse, if they work, they disable the boat from being re-rightable from a full turtle by a singlehander. I strongly advise against seals for that reason.

As I said just above your post, I prefer the bulb seals with jaws, as they definitely stay in place.  Because I haven't installed the seals on the locker fore and aft horizontal rims (see photo below), they aren't hermetically sealed.  If the boat turtles, the port locker quickly fills with water, as intended as part of the asymmetric capsize buoyancy system.  This was my experience two years ago when I turtled at Mylor (second photo, half way to recovery).  And no, I still haven't had any problem with my locker hinges because of pressure from the bulb seals.

The fact and truth of the matter is that the stowage compartments can -and will- flood in bad conditions

The fact and truth of the matter is that on my boat, they can't and won't. 

On this forum, cooperative endeavour trumps dogmatism every time.  You have boycotted the forum for so many years that perhaps you have forgotten this?

[Peter Cockerton]

I have installed the twin whale pump with cross over feeds on my transom so I can pump water out of the sump. On one of the pump inlets that rest in the sump it has one of those brass push and twist connector fitments. In the locker I keep a length of hose also terminated with one of the brass push and twist connectors that I can connect to the whale pump inlet. The hose will reach the lockers for fast, efficient, and reliable pump out in should it be required. It has on a few occasions been used to pump the ballast tanks out but that does take some effort.

Peter Cockerton

[Llafurio]

I stand by all my statements in this thread and have witnesses and old internal correspondence to prove them.

The flooding of a leeward stowage compartment is a stealth process. It happens without you realising it because at the moment in bad conditions you are sitting high on windward and sail on for dear life, and trust your cut-off corners or seals. It only takes one bad wave and one bad gust to start it. After the first water intake, the further water intake is self-reinforcing as the heeling of the boat to lee increases more with every new wave taken in.

I now have put this danger on clear and open public record, after I had myself encountered it two times within a timespan of six years. Many others will never experience it themselves, but some will.

[Jonathan Stuart]

Llafurio,

I am sure no-one disbelieves you but, as should happen on forums, everyone (including you) is simply sharing their experiences and others are saying that on their boats and with their sailing they are satisfied that this problem does not occur. Perhaps they are wrong and will be caught out in future or perhaps they have found solutions that you could learn from.

Thanks for the additional context - if you have experienced this twice in six years when sailing for dear life then, while this doesn't take away from the fact that you experienced this problem at the most inopportune time, it is clearly a rare issue that occurs for you in conditions when many will either not be sailing hard or not sailing at all. Sailing carries risk and we all need to understand, mitigate and accept that risk and this thread is an example of that process.

[Antjefokkema]

Graham W,
do you have any specifications of the bulb seal? I cannot see it clearly on the picture and on googling i find thousands sorts and sizes. And after 2 weeks of sailing our neoprene strips that came with the BRe are totally worn.

[Graham W]

The company that I used is called Seals Direct and the two different bulb seals are ETS58, for the inboard (lower) edges of the locker, and ETS59 for the outboard upper edge.  Both seals can be found (eventually) by scrolling through this page http://www.sealsdirect.co.uk/shopping.asp?intDepartmentId=3#23.

Here's a link to my original post http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,414.msg2212.html#msg2212

Matt says (above) that he is trialling some Italian seals which will be better than the neoprene.  Unless you're concerned about straining your locker hinges (possibly a problem with earlier boats), the seals that I have used do the job effectively.

[Andy Dingle]

Jonathan...  Have you ever considered a career in the Diplomatic Service..?!

I've a few contacts if you need them...!

[Jonathan Stuart]

Jonathan...  Have you ever considered a career in the Diplomatic Service..?!

I've a few contacts if you need them...!

Ha, thanks Andy, appreciate that, but I'm sure they wouldn't have me!

[mark1]

 Llafurio,
are you talking about water entering from above as it comes over the side of the boat, or coming in round the bottom of the lid from the cockpit?
Mark.