LEE HELM

[JOD]

I have dreadful lee helm and a reluctance to tack with my BR20. I appreciate that you will all be keen to help with technical info about CLR and COE etc but I have been sailing for over 40 years and I know all that. I having tried mast rake and various sail settings. What is worrying is that the problem remains without the jib set so it is not clear how jib trim could improve things. In any event the jib only pushes the COE forward and, if anything, would increase lee helm. I suspect that I am not powering up the main enough as it does appear that it does like to be sheeted looser than any boat I have sailed before but it seems to be a very fine line between over and under sheeting. Sheeting in to follow the angle through the tack does not seem to help and as the tacks are incredibly slow, the risk of getting into irons makes tacking in confined waters a nail biting exercise. I am currently setting a main cut down to the size of a first reef as my crew won't sail if she has to hang over the side. In fact I am sailing single handed until this problem is solved. This is making it harder to make adjustments to three sails while observing the results but I can't do a lot about that. Obviously setting the full main will bring the COE back and improve things but a first reef shouldn't have this affect so sail trim seems to be the issue. Is this where the problem lies or have others any other experience to offer?

[david]

Hi Jod,

Not sure what  your  experiences  are  with  a Mizzen .  I had similar  issues  until  I  figured  out how  to  utilize  the  Mizzen .

[JOD]

David, how did you resolve the problem with the mizzen? As I see it the mizzen brings the COE back which should increase weather helm if anything. I have tried to push the bow round by backing the mizzen but this is not very effective and anyway simply masks the problem which I need to get sorted.
Having thought about it overnight I'm going to try raking the mast back. I've been reluctant to experiment too much with this as, unlike a racing dinghy, there are no settings to work to and I'm concerned for the pressure on the forestay but it's worth a try. Anyone else had lee helm and tacking problems; how did you fix it?

[Sea Simon]

I struggled a little initially,with  the mizzen,  when singlehandedly sailing in very confined waters. OK now.

Other
seen this, from Llafurio?

My boat always had a sh... balance on the rudder. She had a leeward tendency, and was poor to go through the tacks. Now I know why: The board COULD NOT go down all the way but stayed approx 20 degrees from vertical,  independent  of the downhaul friction problem, because there was a knot iin the wrong place in the uphaul pulley sytem

Under
Centreboard issues on BRe

[johnguy]

I raked my Bre mast back a bit more when I saw others at rally were so, and I started winning races. Tacks on an old sixpence and tiller light as a feather on all points of sail.

[JOD]

I thought about the C/Bd but it's well down so it's not that. I raked the mast back today but it's the main culprit as everything else has been checked. Can anyone assist with an indication as to how far back the rake can be taken. How far off the deck is the gap at the front of the mast heel on a properly rigged boat or has anyone any other guides to help?

[Peter Cockerton]

Jod

Use the search Facility within the forum and search on mast rake and User Matt Newland. Matt recommends 2 to 3 degrees aft rake for the BR20, several other threads talk about how to measure this including using a smart phone with a clinometer app.

Peter C

[JOD]

Search comes up 'no results found'.
Where are the posts so I can search manually?

[Peter Cockerton]

Jod

Just searched again and it definitely works, remove the asterisk in the username box before entering Matt Newland

Peter C

[JOD]

OK. Found the pieces and they are most useful. I'll have another go at rake but I'm not sure the iPhone spirit level is going to work as it depends on the mast being absolutely constant in profile all the way up and finding completely flat water. It seems trial and error is the only way forward but when I get it right I'll take measurements for the future. Given how common this problem seems to be and how dangerous lee helm is I'm a little surprised this hasn't been done by the builder. The distance between the top swivel and the mast is probably the most useful guide.  The boat is a pig at the moment so I do hope this can be sorted. It attracts so many admiring remarks and when it sails free I can see the potential.

[Peter T]

I had a conversation with Matt last year about rake and the answer was:

"The mast rake should be somewhere between 2 and 4 degrees aft. On the BR20 and BRe"

So I increased the rake on my BRE to 4.1 degrees (I like to push things to the limit! ).  This was measured using my android clinometer app and the boat is now extremely well balanced.  Not that it was a problem before, but it is nevertheless better now.

[Sea Simon]

Personally, I'm not keen on settings/measurements that rely on spirit levels and similar on "live" boats etc; too many variables!
I recall one happy hour spent watching a fabricator attempting to set up a job on an oil platform that although fixed, still swayed a little and, of course, distorted or bent slightly when subjected to uneven loadings....like the crane moving!

Straightforward linear measurement would be better, imho.
Eg perhaps mast tip to forward edge of centre of mizzen hole moulding? Something that shouldn't vary too much boat to boat, and is infinitely repeatable?
Does anyone have this sort of data?

Personally, I raked mine until I was content with helm feel. Have not so far attempted angular measurements.
I then changed all standing cordage for Dyneema. I have previously posted about stretch of original shroud rope tails.

I do however now intend to take Llafurio advice, and check board position, to be sure I have not "dialled out" any board issues!

[JOD]

I'm with Sea Simon on this. I can't get out to the boat until next week but intend to use trial and error as there appear to be no practical measurable alternatives. I encountered this problem forcefully trying to tack down a channel back to my mooring against the tide after my outboard decided to pack up. I was relaxed as it should have been easy to sail back until it became clear that lee helm made it dangerous; the water was disappearing from the edges quickly and there were lots of moorings. Fortunately a passing boat gave me a tow. I got away with it but it is why I am rather concerned that this could be allowed to continue for future unsuspecting new owners.

[Peter Cockerton]

Jod

I for one have owned and sailed a BR20 over several years and I have been so pleased with the boat I have commissioned the build of another.
I can perfectly understand your frustration with your Lee helm experiences on your boat however it's not an inherent design fault of the boat in my experience and personal opinion and with well over 100 BR20 built to date very little postings have been placed with this issue are raised on the forum.

Can I suggest if you haven't done so already discuss this matter with the builders as your comment on concerns for unsuspecting new owners is in my opinion unfounded.

Peter Cockerton

[JOD]

I understand your comments but you misunderstand what I say. I do not suggest any design fault, quite the reverse. Clearly this is a well designed boat. I love it. Everyone who sees me in it remarks favourably. I am concerned about something which took me completely by surprise and which could have had serious consequences. I hesitated long and hard before raising it as I feel so inadequate about it. I simply cannot  understand why I should have such dreadful lee helm, something I had never encountered before in 40 years and tend to look for some fault in my boathandling.  After a lot of experimenting with sail setting and trim and assisted by the comments of other owners I believe (hope) it is down to mast rake. My comments about the builder are valid because it is acknowledged that the mast should be raked back. That is not what the owner's manual says and to find advice about this involves a lengthy trawl through the posts on this website. I am pleased that your experience has been so good but it might have been of assistance to a fellow owner with a worrying problem (and possibly others ) to have had your input into the settings which you use.