The Epropulsion Spirit XS - A Horse for our Course?

[Sea Simon]

GW, I think you are right with respect to carburettor issues, especially  on small 4 strokes.

Imho, we are treading a very similar path with "bio-diesel", leading to increased incidents of diesel bug etc.

[garethrow]

I had a chat with Graham on the phone, partly to gather his experience of how much 'grunt' an E Proplusion has when you really need it, (not enough for my circumstances) and partly to vent frustration of my Yamaha coming out of winter storage and not starting - Despite having been properly serviced and winterised, Despite always using Aspen type fuel, Despite being wrapped in a blanket in an insulated dry workshop over winter, Despite all appropriate (and inapropriate) incantations and genuflections. I am not particularly technical savy - so was sorely tempted to take up stamp collecting as a more sensibe recreational pass time when faced with far too many kilos of useless metal installed on the transom. However, after some gentle coaxing from 1st mate and better half I continued to fiddle and discuss the issue with the servicing agent. It appears my problem lies in the fuel line between the remote tank and the engine. Although I had looked to see if there was fuel coming out of the end of the fuel line, I had not realised that it was not enough coming out to properly fill a drained engine. The squeezy bulb 'pump' has a non return valve in it so that you squeeze petrol in one direction only. On doing this and carefully watching the fuel filter I could see the fual filter wasn't rally getting full - just a bit in the bottom, and the bulb was never really getting stiff. Taking it iff and trying it 'in hand' showed more fuel coming out of the wrong end than the right end! As it is only two years old and looks in good nick I am a bit suprised by this failure. If ony someone would make an affrordable elecric motor of around 5hp equivalence ....

In the meantime I am having to apologise to my engine for all those inappropriate remarks!

Gareth Rowlands
Helen Y Mor BR20 GRP

[Graham W]

I've just received a pointless email from Mercury advising me about their new electric outboard, the Avator 7.5e.  Pointless because it still doesn't seem to be available in the UK and I couldn't find out what it's going to cost here.  In the USA, it costs US$1,000 (40%) more than the eProp Spirit.

The 7.5 moniker is misleading.  This is because it refers to its rated prop shaft power of 750W, not to 7.5HP.  I believe that this is the same shaft power as the eProp Spirit and Torqeedo 1103C.  The prop itself is three-bladed and is claimed to be more efficient than others.  Attention is diverted (as usual with these claims) from the fact that the motor is only 1HP.  Mercury themselves suggest that it would be suitable for propelling a 10ft dinghy.  It comes in three shaft sizes and is the first outboard to use a transflux motor (me neither).

Mercury claim that the Avator is capable of speed and acceleration "similar to" its 3.5HP 4-stroke petrol outboard.  I wonder how far below 3.5HP the phrase "similar to" has to go before the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 comes into play.

Other causes for scepticism:
* it weighs a truly monstrous 27kg
* its battery is a measly 1kW
* There's no information on likely range
* It looks enormous for what it does
* US reviews say that it's significantly noisier than the eProp Spirit.

As I said, a pointless email from Mercury, advertising an over-priced product that isn't available.  Even if it was, I doubt that you would want it.  What were they thinking?

[Sea Simon]

Mercury, makers of the world's largest outboard (V12 600HP, and often fitted in multiples on one boat) jumping on the "E" bandwagon?

Rather like Lotus (famed for their lightweight, agile sports cars) and their new Eletre, an electric car, well an SUV...that is over 5m long, weighs 2 Tonnes and does 0_62 in 2.9 seconds!

Neither the Avator, nor the Eletre seem like a sensible way ahead to me!

[Graham W]

Torqeedo have announced a much-needed revamp of their Travel range of small electric outboards.  The most interesting version is the XP, with a much bigger motor (allegedly 5HP equivalent vs 3HP claimed on the standard version) and a 1,425W integrated battery.  It can run for 47 minutes at full throttle and (given its extra power) weighs a not unreasonable 23kg, with the battery accounting for 13kg of that.  It's not available in the UK yet but will cost £3,000+.  Here's a link https://www.torqeedo.com/en/products/outboards/travel/travel-xp/M-1162-00.html.

ePropulsion's nearest equivalent is the Navy 3.0, allegedly a 6HP, weighing a hefty 23kg without battery and costing around £2,500.  Unlike the Torqeedo, the Navy's battery is separate and normally has more than twice the capacity.  It's also more expensive - outboard plus battery would cost at least £3,500.

So by providing a smaller battery capacity than the eProp Navy, while cutting weight and also coming in at a lower price, Torqeedo's XP seems to be aiming at a different segment of the market - those who quite like the idea of a lightweight outboard (like the eProp Spirit) but who need more power and are prepared to compromise on range to achieve this.  I expect that eProp will respond quite quickly to the challenge.

Torqeedo's standard versions of the Travel that compete with the eProp Spirit have also been revamped but at significant additional cost - see https://www.torqeedo.com/en/products/outboards/travel.

[Aurigacap]

As someone who bought a 10 year old junk rig BC20 nearly 2 years ago for restoration to its original configuration, because it seemed(NB) like a bit of a bargain, now that I am ready to launch, going electric 'on the cheap' has become my next 'ambitious' venture.

Having surveyed these columns, the market and tried a 1kw Epropulsion in open water, my conclusions are:
- a 1kw Eprop/Torquedo is not enough for a 1000kg ballasted/laden boat in the strongly tidal waters of the Thames estuary, where encounters with heavy commercial traffic in a swell are not unusual. The next up 3kw variants are too expensive for me at £2300+ without battery
- in these conditions, none of the outboards with built in batteries offers enough endurance on one charge for a full day out, and the cost of additions is excessive per kw/hr compared with standard lithium ion batteries
- boats with cockpit outboard wells, like the BC20, could do without  a large power/battery head and/or long shaft  to trip over. Why should compact, light e propulsion imitate the traditional petrol formula?

The requirement might best be met by an electric pod motor on a minimal vertical slide, with around 200-250ah (24v) of lithium ion batteries cabin remotely mounted in the vacant area under the cabin entrance, where their 40kg weight might replace equivalent water ballast, while enabling removal for charging in the absence of local power points. Rob Johnstone's contribution to the thread on Electric Pod Drives (31 October 2023) points the way. The problem is that the available 3kw pods cost about the same as e outboards, leaving aside the fabrication of a sliding mount and the batteries.

Salvation, for me at least, may come in the shape of Haswing's Protruar 5, a 2.5kw/24v outboard, with a small head and a leg that offers both a sliding and tilting option. This can be had for about £700 and 2x100ah 24v IP65 lithium ion batteries for about £1700. This provides around double the thrust of the Eprop/Torquedo 1kw options, at least twice the range at equivalent thrust with these batteries, with minimal cockpit intrusion. Not cheap at £2500 all in, but at 2x the cost of a new replacement for my ageing 5hp two stroke, the margin is worth it for lower running costs, no smell/noise and first time starting with low maintenance. Haswing has been around for longer than most in USA and Germany with their trolling motors for fishermen and enjoy a good reputation for robust reliability.

But there's a catch. The 1m shaft is far too long and cutting it to around 50cm will invalidate the guarantee. It's doable diy, according to Haswing dealers and there are examples involving comparable models on the web. The task involves removing the head (2 screws), cutting the tubular SS shaft to the desired length respecting the minimum imposed by the sliding mechanism, and shortening the 3 wires from the direct drive motor to the head. I have ordered one and will test it thoroughly, before hacking it, to ensure the guarantee is unlikely to be needed. Watch this space for updates on the execution and the inevitable problems.

We all know that a boat is a hole in the water into which you throw money. Let's see if I can keep it down to a compact sack or two this time.   

[Sea Simon]

https://www.deutz.com/en/media/press-releases/deutz-sells-torqeedo-to-strategic-investor-yamaha-motor-co-ltd

DEUTZ sells Torqeedo to strategic investor Yamaha Motor Co., Ltd.
Important step in repositioning of the portfolio
Proceeds from the sale expected to be in the higher double-digit million-euro range
Cologne/Wessling, January 19, 2024 – DEUTZ today announced a further milestone in the repositioning of its portfolio as part of its Dual+ strategy: Torqeedo, the world's leading manufacturer of outboard and inboard drives, will be sold to Yamaha Motor Co., Ltd. ("Yamaha").

In 2017, DEUTZ acquired the specialist for electric boat drives in order to accelerate its electrification strategy for the core customer segments (especially construction equipment, agricultural machinery and material handling equipment) and expand Torqeedo's technology and market leadership position in marine electromobility. Over the last few years, DEUTZ has successfully built an electric drive portfolio.

"The technology transfer, which was the initial goal we pursued when acquiring Torqeedo, has been achieved. In terms of market knowledge and scaling options, other partners are now better suited for Torqeedo on its way forward. We are pleased to have found such a strategic partner in Yamaha," says DEUTZ CEO Dr. Sebastian C. Schulte. "For Torqeedo, the resulting change is a great opportunity. For DEUTZ, it is an important step towards repositioning our green division. To do this, we must systematically align our development efforts with the market and our customers' needs. Only then we will be able to make money with our green products and build a profitable green ecosystem. This will bundle all relevant products and technologies to make sure that – also in future – DEUTZ will keep the world moving."

Probably a very good thing given some of the sh1te that Deutz has foisted upon the world, TBD V16s, in 120 degree V, for example, made worse in very compact multi engine installations 

[Graham W]

Yamaha is a more sensible home for Torqeedo than Deutz.  Torqeedo has been too slow to react to competition at the lower end of its range and its outboards are still too expensive for what they offer.

[Aurigacap]

For what it's worth, one of the conclusions of my research is that most Torqeedo outboards are made in China.

Yamaha ownership won't change that. 75% of their outboard sales are in SE Asia and you can order them direct from China on the web. Minimal final assembly for euro markets, from chinese components, qualifies for the 'made in Germany' tag, to justify the higher prices commanded by 'German' products. The big margins, ie profits, are in booming bespoke e power for larger yachts, reserved for their high cost Munich HQ.

Owners of BMW motorcycles will not be surprised. The engines of their smaller 800cc models have been made in China for the last decade and the latest 8/900cc models are entirely made and partly designed there, in Chinese mega factories which supply other local brands. A new product tag has been created : 'Designed in Germany'

Don't, therefore, assume that paying a premium for Torqeedo secures traditional German quality. E propulsion and Haswing bits may come from the same source.

[Sea Simon]

A, I think you are correct about the Chinese sourcing,  however, realistically unavoidable these days it seems to me?

There's  (hopefully!) A big difference in the quality of both engineering and materials between random rubbish off Ali baba etc, and my Chinese Honda?

My last "Japanese" Mariner outboard was made in Belgium...

When we ordered a  newToyota Yaris, about 15 years ago, I admit to insisting on a Japanese built Toyota, rather than the alternative French-built one!
A longer wait, but this remained totally faultless for 5 years of relatively heavy use, taught 2 kids to drive. The small all-alloy,  chain-cam 16v turbo diesel then overheated at appx 100,000mls and the car was an economic write off!

[Graham W]

It was alleged, I'm sure entirely mischievously, that when the first ePropulsion outboards came to market, they were being made side by side in the factory with parts of the equivalent Torqeedo.  Also (more accurately) that the eProp was a redesign of the Torqeedo to rid it of as many of its weaknesses and design faults as possible.  Not unlike what the yard did with Drascombe when it brought out the BayRaider.

By far the most costly part of electric outboards is the battery and as we know, nearly all lithium cells for consumer products come from China.

[Sea Simon]

Outboard giant Mercury is bringing out a small electric outboard, the Avator 7.5e. It uses something called a tranverse flux electric motor (me neither).  It weighs more than the ePropulsion Spirit but has less power and a smaller battery capacity.  Like all other electric outboard companies, Mercury makes dubious claims about its motor's equivalence to petrol engined outboards.  Like eProp, it uses Li-ion batteries, not the somewhat less combustible LiFePO4.  There was incorrect speculation that use of the latter might explain the Avator's adverse weight/performance ratio.  No price has been announced yet but it may need to undercut existing manufacturers if it hopes to pick up market share.  Still, the more competitors in this sector, the better.

See here for more details on the Avator https://www.mercurymarine.com/en-gb/europe/engines/outboard/avator/mercury-avator-75e/.

Have just seen a new Mercury Avator priced at £3175. Not in the flesh, as yet...

Slightly more £ at F4 chandlers ( "it" usually is...), but perhaps that's where to view one?

[Graham W]

There's an article in the latest issue of Practical Boat Owner (no. 702, April) that is something of a demolition job on the original Torqeedo Travel electric outboard, written by someone who has owned one for two years.  All the usual complaints are there: flimsy plastic fittings, dodgy cable connections, corrosion.  To which he could have added poor after-sales service.

Torqeedo were given a right of reply, which mostly comprised claims that the revised 2024 XP models (not yet available in the UK) had rectified things.  No apology for continuing to sell (even today) a dud product for 15+ years to foolish people like me.  We learned the hard way that ePropulsion have consistently made better products at a lower price.

[Sea Simon]

There's an article in the latest issue of Practical Boat Owner (no. 702, April) that is something of a demolition job on the original Torqeedo Travel electric outboard, written by someone who has owned one for two years.  All the usual complaints are there: flimsy plastic fittings, dodgy cable connections, corrosion.  To which he could have added poor after-sales service.

Torqeedo were given a right of reply, which mostly comprised claims that the revised 2024 XP models (not yet available in the UK) had rectified things.  No apology for continuing to sell (even today) a dud product for 15+ years to foolish people like me.  We learned the hard way that ePropulsion have consistently made better products at a lower price.

Excellent article,  well worth a read...

[Graham W]

Here are some suggested improvements to the eProp Spirit outboard, as discussed on an eProp Facebook group.

- Proper shallow water drive, not just anti-grounding
- Battery level charge indicator on the actual battery.  Currently an expensive actuator accessory and the motor's tiller LCD panel (when connected to the battery) provide this
- USB socket on the battery - this is available on the competing Torqeedo motor
- Curly kill cord instead of the bit of string as at present, so that the kill cord magnet doesn't dislodge so easily
- Marine ruggedised quick connect/disconnect between the motor and battery instead of a cable
- Otherwise, no thin pins in the plugs and sealed empty socket to put plug onto when battery disconnected.
- A tiller that can fully fold back so that it doesn't foul the cockpit floor when the motor is tilted
- Anti-theft protection for the battery - someone has 3D printed a lock that makes it difficult to access the blue battery release handle
- Bluetooth battery management system for monitoring on a smart phone
- Safer LiFePO4 batteries instead of Li-ion - although this might make the battery large and unwieldy
- Sun cover for LCD panel and buttons on the tiller
- Backlighting for the LCD panel for night-time use
- Dual shaft seals with water sensor / alert
- Make available a prop protection enclosure accessory

Interestingly, no-one mentioned integrating a GPS into the circuit board, as Torqeedo do with their equivalent motor.  Perhaps Torqeedo should prioritise ruggedness over electronic gimmickry?