Hi, I have some questions about Bay Cruiser 20's, on the 5th response below.

[graham2burton65@gmail.com]

Hello folks,

Thanks for making this facility so open friendly and informative.
I am seriously tempted by a BC20 and have been reading all of Julians blog, thanks Julian. Along with any other references and videos.

My wife and I are retired and I have extensive experience over many years, I suspect many Swallow Boat owners do.

Having worked my way up via numerous dinghy's to bigger yachts, and just sold a 36 foot ketch, I am in the market!

We have re-affirmed our wish to daysail/overnight cruise in sheltered/scenic locations in small boats.

I would love to exchange chats with any one and particularly any one who has experience of the BC20.

Primarily I need to decide if it is fair and viable for my wife Jane to cope well and enjoy one with me.
But plenty of other specific questions.

Kind regards
Graham Burton
Graham B?
as I see a very knowledgable Graham regularly posts

[Michael Rogers]

Hello, Graham B
You were kind enough to describe us, collectively, as open and friendly: and then no-one replies to your friendly overture for nearly a week! Poor show on our side. So - welcome!

I can't help with BC 20 topics. I'm a (the?) maverick, with a rather unorthodox self-build Trouper 12 (when Swallow Yachts was Swallow Boats and you could buy kits from them). However can I say that 1) when this current nightmare is over; 2) if you do acquire a BC20; 3) if you ever felt like sailing in the Poole/Studland area (which I imagine you may already know. My boat is at Studland): we could perhaps arrange to meet up, or at least dip yards at sea.

Meanwhile, maybe this post will rouse a few BC20 experts (there are plenty around) from their isolation /lockdown/whatever to help you out practically.

Keep well and safe. Best wishes

Michael Rogers (Trouper 12 'Cavatina')

[Peter Taylor]

Hi Michael, just to reassure you that the BC20 community is not as unfriendly as it may look! Graham and I have been in touch by email and phone and I've been moving my portaloo around Seatern and photographing it in various potential positions... it's just that I've spared you all the photos!

Stay safe,
Cheers, Peter

[Michael Rogers]

 Trust me to put my foot in it, Peter! I assure you I wasn't really casting nasturtiums (as Pooh would say) about BC20-ers, just wanting to make sure Graham B felt welcome. I can think of few more friendly and practical topics than portaloo positioning (there have been times when one of those would have been very handy in my little boat, if there were room which of course there isn't), particularly when downsizing from a 36 footer.

Even writing this useless contribution to the forum has me coming out in rash of acute frustration about house arrest. I'll have to go and take it out on the garden.
Cheers       Michael

[graham2burton65@gmail.com]

I have now posted a wanted add in the for sale section!

thanks to Tony Langmead, Peter Taylor and Julian Swindell for the excellent and informative blogs they have written. Special thanks to Peter who has already been answering questions

I now have some specific questions.

1.)  I can see Julian is the proud owner of boat number 001 boat in July 2009. How many more were built and over what period? I think about 10 or 11?  the last one is how old now? 

2.  the second question is the hardest. cue much discussion!!
What is the right price for a tidy basic BC20? ( How long is a piece of string?)
The current new price is  £39,540 inc Vat plus trailer, plus engine, plus extras.  so easily  £45,000, the first ones cost about £30,000?
I am guessing between £20 and £30?  More for the very best?

Even bearing in mind how special they are this is an awful lot for a 20 ft boat.  I am reasonably happy to pay what the market expects if I can mostly get my money back when selling. I am worried that  junk rigged one had trouble selling last year and eventually sold for £10,000.

2.  does anyone know the length of the trailer forward of the stem of the boat. From the back end of the winch to the ball hitch.  I have 25 foot on my drive but that would not allow room to get around the transom.

3.  Has anyone figured out a way of knowing if a previous owner has used ordinary single pack paint, over the original good two pack?

4.  Can the standard trailer pick the boat off the ground, or indeed drop it on the ground.  My front garden, beside the drive, is not long enough for a winter lay up on the trailer. So I wish to set it up boatyard style. Would you give the same answer if it had the larger wheels of a braked trailer?

5.  I do intend to trailer sail one, so I would be using the trailer a lot. I am considering adding a braked axle as Peter did.  I if I bought a new trailer, who sells the best one and why?

6.  I tow with a high top camper van.  With the mast stowed horizontally I  cannot have the mast extending forward of the ball hitch.  If so, how much would the mast extend out behind the boat?


probably enough for now!!
many thanks
Graham B

 

[graham2burton65@gmail.com]

Ps.  Should I repost the questions above, as a new post?

[Graham W]

Graham,

Welcome to the forum.  As your questions are about the BC20 and probably can only be answered by a BC20 owner, there's no need for a new thread.

[Matthew P]

Hello Graham

Maybe the following answers some of your questions, assuming the BR20 is similar to the Bay Cruiser 20 :

2) The bow of my BR20 is 1 meter exactly to the center of the ball hitch.  It would not be hugely difficult on my trailer to move the winch post forward 400mm although the nose weight would then be too great to tow safely.  I had contemplated doing this anyway to sneak within the 8 meter limit for ferries and breakdown recovery.

4) I  "ground launch" my BR20 onto my front lawn for trailer and hull maintenance. 

The trick is to use a pulley to reverse the winch pull direction (see photo below), allow the trailer to tilt and tow hitch to rise at the same time as roll forward from under the boat.  The tow hitch can be "rests" on a step ladder when I get nervous.  It's important to make sure the rudder case doesn't touch the ground before the transom and hence carry the weight of the boat.  Either put car tires, or similar, under the transom or remove the rudder assembly completely first.

Other BR20 owners have propped up the hull above the trailer on planks and bricks and then pulled the trailer from under the boat.  With a bit of ingenuity it is possible to alternately wind the jockey wheel down to raise the bow, prop the bow up and then wind the jockey wheel up to raise the stern prop-it, and repeat.  It goes with saying that secure propping is essential, so no dodgy piles of bricks.

Which reminds me, a useful technique for manually maneuvering a heavy boat and trailer is to chock one trailer wheel, pull the drawbar across sideways, chock the other wheel and repeat.  Slow but effective - I've got my BR20 up some very steep and loose slipways as well as moving the BR20, and heavier boats, around the garden.   

A good trailer is without doubt a high priority for enjoyable trailer sailing.  There is plenty of discussion on this forum about trailers and no doubt will continue.

I'm sorry I can't help on your other questions but other forum members are better qualified

Matthew
BR20 Gladys

[Llafurio]

...
2) The bow of my BR20 is 1 meter exactly to the center of the ball hitch.  It would not be hugely difficult on my trailer to move the winch post forward 400mm although the nose weight would then be too great to tow safely.  I had contemplated doing this anyway to sneak within the 8 meter limit for ferries and breakdown recovery.

...

Just bring the trailer axle forward too. Piece of cake. C.

[graham2burton65@gmail.com]

Hi folks,
I am getting many kind and helpful responses, please do keep them coming
thank you to, amongst others, Jeremy Andrews, Mathew R, Llafurio, Graham W and Peter T.
The more i hear the more i am convinced it is the right boat for me.. In fact somebody please say something not so good about them!! just for some balance and discussion..

[Sea Simon]

"3.  Has anyone figured out a way of knowing if a previous owner has used ordinary single pack paint, over the original good two pack?"

Yes - I've seen several "coatings professionals" - otherwise known as painters to normal folk (There are even professional "Coatings Surveyors" in my world, they don't actually apply the coatings, just survey them!) do this, but the tests are all intrusive/destructive, and therefore unlikely to be possible until the boat is your own?

Often, theses guys appear to press various solvent soaked pads against the surface. The damage - or otherwise - to the coating will inform you as to what type of coating has been used. The reaction/symptoms will vary according to the coating/solvent reaction.

Added to the inevitable damage, is that to buy the selection of thinners needed as a "civi" is likely to be a significant expenditure in itself?
Two pack thinners are not cheap!

Maybe just try ordinary thinners on a non-visible, small, test patch? probably easier said than done? that might just detect single pack over two pack?

Not sure if this info is actually of any help?

If nothing else, I've learnt some useful bits about dry launching - thanks!

[Julian Merson]

Like the OP, I have coveted the BC20 pretty much from its inception, certainly through reading Julian Swindell's blog updates as No1 was in the build stage.  Never imagined that I'd have a chance to buy one, but that chance came along last year and I took the plunge with BC20 No8.  I still don't know if it is the right thing - only time will tell. 
I  owned my Drascombe Coaster for 14 years and over 6000 nautical miles, all  documented on my old blog www.daisyii.blogspot.com.  The boat had countless benefits and very few drawbacks, but somehow the BC20 has been an itch I just had to scratch.

So far, things have been a bit... no, more than a bit frustrating - almost like some higher being asking, 'Are you sure?  No, are you really sure?'  The main issues have been:

Centreplate not dropping fully - solved eventually at the end of last summer, by a boat yard hoisting boat off trailer, forcing plate down and shaving a few mm of coppercoat off it.  Boatyard inspection confirmed there had been no swelling through water ingress and that plate and box are perfectly watertight.  How long had this been an issue for the previous owner, one wonders?
Centreplate pivot pin had been replaced by previous owner with one of the wrong size - no idea why - it was bent and allowed vertical play in the centreplate.  Solved with replacement bolt of correct size.
Not recovering straight onto trailer - ongoing (and, yes, all relevant posts and articles noted on this increasingly excellent site).  Difficult to solve when we're not able to launch!
Forward inspection hatches for water ballast leaking - on removal, found issue with rubber seals on lids, one missing, one broken.  Replaced and now watertight, but understand, from Julian S's blog, that these might be an ongoing issue.
Water sloshing up through centreboard casing.  New sealant deployed.  Fixed.
Various scrapes, dings and scratches on hull topsides - inherited from previous owner.  Slowly working my way round these and learning how best to achieve a finish which maintains the excellent original finish.  I shall have to repaint eventually and, following advice, have decided that professional paint finishes will be prohibitively expensive and hard to maintain, so am going down the single pot route which better suits my limited skills.
Cabin cushions sticking to base paintwork.  Removal, a huge amount of scrubbing; repainting cabin floor with primer before deciding how to proceed.  Seems to be ok since, but still a little sticky in places.
Carbon fibre splintering on mast.  Considering painting, but no progress on this currently.
Strongly considering having trailer modified to a braked version.  What's the point of a cabined boat if you can't load it up with kit and kerboodle?  100kg is soon breached especially since outboard, main anchor & chain, kedge, ropes are all a part of the 100kg.  Plus, I want to kit out the cabin with some permanent fixtures and fittings - all adding to the weight.  To me, the trailer should have been braked from the outset, an unbraked one is a bit of a false economy.

From the limited sailing so far, I had issues on Hickling Broad where the rudder (which seems, oddly, to be angled forwards) happily hooked the various weed and algae and made serious progress very difficult - I had to angle the rudder aft and put down far less plate, and this seemed to increase weather helm substantially.  However, a much better experience on Rutland Water a few weeks later.  It's sea sailing, I particularly enjoy, however.

And now there's this current situation we all find ourselves...

Don't get me wrong, she is a seriously pretty boat and seems to sail very well although I've managed so few trips up to now.  Hopefully, later this summer we'll be allowed out to play and I can put Daisy III through some serious sea miles.

[graham2burton65@gmail.com]

Hi Julian,

I did ask for some negative points to temper my enthusiasm!

thanks for your response and thanks for your separate E mails.
Welcome to the Forum.  Sorry to hear you have so many initial problems, they are problems I recognise from discussion with others.

From my discussion with other owners, most early boats required some trips back to the yard in Wales for some improvements.  Everyone reports excellent service from Matt, albiet a nuisance to tow there and back.  I am guessing your boat missed some of this updating work?  or maybe subsequent modifications?

We all wish you well and hope that you end up with a boat you are pleased with.
If you have not yet done so, check out the modification Peter has done to Seatern.  He raises and lowers his mast every time he sails. Special inner shrouds and removable sail track etc.  he also upgraded to a braked trailer.

It has not put me off, just leaves me better informed,  I have three boats to look at as soon as Covid allows.

kind regards
Graham B

[Peter Taylor]

Hi Julian,

One or two of your points I can address...

"Forward inspection hatches for water ballast leaking" - one my BC20 the lids of these were sealed down with marine sealant from when she left the yard - normally there is no reason to have to open them, or at least I haven't found a reason to do so.

"Carbon fibre splintering on mast" - a problem not unique to the BC20! It would be better if SY painted their CF masts.

"rudder (which seems, oddly, to be angled forwards)"... - it not only catches weed but is a nuisance if you forget to lift it when going into shallow water since as you raise it it requires more draft to get it past the vertical. I asked Matt about this and he said he angled it forward to lighten the load on the tiller i.e. a more "balanced" rudder. Sailing the boat with the centreboard part raised will decrease the weather helm but that effect would be over whelmed by having the rudder raised so that you were fighting the leverage created. You get the same effect in a sailing dinghy when it is telling you that you've forgotten to lower the rudder after you launched!

"Strongly considering having trailer modified to a braked version." - I did that very early on. I think Matt was thinking of the BC20 as being a BR with a cabin but once you start adding some creature comforts the weight soon gets to the limit for an unbraked trailer.

I'm very happy with my BC20 "Seatern" although in the present climate she is spending her days moored to my jetty as a place to sit and read. Still the time off has allowed her to be cleaned and spruced up to a higher standard than in the past few years!

Peter

[Julian Merson]

Thank you Peter and Graham for your replies, and Graham for your separate email correspondence. All very reassuring.

I posted, in part, because Graham asked for a balance of opinions - some negative points about these boats and my current experiences seemed quite relevant. I'd always looked at the BC20 from a distance with some envy.  Now, as an owner, I find myself learning all sorts of woodworking skills which make me rather grateful to have studied the subject (and not Latin) for O-level...!

If there is anything that is beneficial about our current circumstances, it is that the enforced 'landlubberedness' leaves little choice other than to address the many issues presented by this boat.  Otherwise, I'd probably just be out sailing her and the problems either wouldn't get solved or they'd just get progressively worse.  And, to be fair, it's all quite enjoyable.

Latest issues include sorting out the tabernacle which has lifted on one side and the screw holes have softened and are in danger of rotting.  So I've removed the tabernacle, drilled out and replugged the offending screwholes, redrilled and refitted.  The tabernacle itself is a bit buckled - obviously from wayward raising of the mast, but screwing the hole thing down tight has corrected this.
Next job - mast painting (grateful to have seen this thread on that topic https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1470.msg10706.html#msg10706)

Next to my Drascombe, however, which just generally works well, owning the BC20 has been a rather different experience so far.  However, I remain convinced that, given time, ownership is going to be a fantastic experience!