Expensive and tired old technology?

[Graham W]

Surveyors?  The police?  If the market was big enough, companies like Apple would have done it long ago and shut out the after market case manufacturers.

[Sea Simon]

I think the hardware is out there?
I used to have one of these (many years ago now, before tablets were a "thing")
Panasonic Toughbook
https://business.panasonic.co.uk/mobile-solutions/products-and-accessories

It used to travel in a Pelicase
https://www.waterproof-cases.co.uk/category/peli-air-cases/

Good kit.
Biggest issue we had was that they seemed to get "lost" in transit more often than they ought to. Attractive hardware to theives, too "sexy" looking? Of course the data that went with them was the real worry.

The counter argument, against such high spec kit was that we could at that time buy about 3 ordinary units for the same cost. Therefore take our chances with water damage etc?
Ended up with toughbooks only being used when necessary to actually work outdoors. Turned out not that many applications for ruggedised PCs in reality, in our world. Not many takers for eMail or video conferences standing in the peeing rain, or worse!
They were also very heavy and clunky to lug about.
Tablets with appropriate apps might change the game nowadays? I didn't check to see current prices.

[Matthew P]

The challenge seems to be finding something sunlight readable and wet finger operable. This looks promising but $1,800 for display alone is expensive compared to a small Garmin chart-plotter package or similar.

https://www.stealth.com/ruggedlcds/marinelcds/8-4-marine-waterproof-lcd-monitor-sunlight-readable-display/

Matthew
BR20 Gladys

[Graham W]

A crazy price for the (passive?) display!  And a decent spec Panasonic Toughpad, which at least has an operating system (albeit the wrong one for me), is over £2,000.

A complete and quite upmarket system based on the Dragonfly 7 Pro GPS/fishfinder and Tacktick wind system, all talking to each other, would cost about £1,600.  Still too much but at least you get all the information that you need.

I reckon sensibly priced Bluetooth systems that do everything required are a couple of years away.  Then I have to find a decent waterproof case for my iPad that won't fall apart and I'm happy.

[Graham W]

In the absence of the simplicity nirvana quoted above from the Gear Anarchy forum, I have made do with the tired old technology that I already have, which is:
Garmin 557xs GPS/fishfinder (2013)
Tacktick T112 wireless wind system (1997?)

I have now added a cheap reconditioned Tacktick T122 NMEA 0183 transmitter, so that wind data is sent to the Garmin and can be displayed there as an overlay on the chart or as separate wind gauges.  I bought the T122 from Steve Moore, who was recommended on the forum for all things Tacktick by Peter C https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,971.msg6237.html#msg6237.  I also highly recommend him.

As Garmin and Tacktick (Raymarine) stay in their respective technology silos and make interconnection needlessly difficult, Steve helped me understand which wires went where.  It's not at all obvious but at least nearly all the NMEA wires already exist in the Garmin's power cable so it involved minimal additional wiring.  I also had to work out how to configure the Garmin to accept the Tacktick NMEA data.  It now all works and if anyone wants to go down the same route, I know what to do and can make it relatively painless.  Even quite old Garmin models (eg the 556s) can be connected up this way.

One step towards simplicity nirvana is that Garmin screens can be viewed and controlled on the water by an iPad or iPhone through a free app called Garmin Helm, which has been superseded by Garmin ActiveCaptain.  Screenshots from my iPad below.  It's actually easier to control the Garmin on the iPad (for example when inputting waypoints) than on the Garmin itself.

One other benefit from linking the two systems is that they can both now display their version of true wind speed and direction, derived from the Garmin's SOG and heading (when underway) and the Tacktick's apparent wind speed and direction.

[Matthew P]

Has anyone used one of these?

https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Garmin/GPSMAP-276Cx-Portable-Chartplotter/A99?fbclid=IwAR0NXN_vMH9vlSZRExZT_n94Td6MK9iablmkI1b2VHMAZYA7UDhCwQ8s09Q

Expensive but seems to tick a lot of boxes including high viz screen, 8 hrs with AA battery or 16 hrs lithium life, WiFi, Bluetooth, etc

Matthew
Gladys BR20

[Graham W]

Matthew,

I can see the attraction of not having to install a 12V battery on your new boat.  However, this unit seems very expensive compared to 12V fishfinder/GPS units, which also tell you what is going on under the boat.  Here's a very cheap example https://www.amazon.co.uk/Garmin-STRIKER-4-Fishfinder-GPS/dp/B01AKI4VH4/ref=asc_df_B01AKI4VH4/.  Electronically spotting shoals of fish and changes in the seabed adds another dimension to my sailing experience.

[Rob Johnstone]

I've watched this discussion of the technology with interest. It does occur to me that the desire to have all the sensor information presented to you on one display does lead you down the path of a a single failure-that of the display renders the whole lot useless. This was brought home to me on Riff Raff, when one (of the many)  connections to the "all singing" Raymarine display left me with a blank screen and some interesting "old fashioned" navigation - fortunately in an area where I had real chart.

[Graham W]

I've just upgraded and updated the excellent Navionics navigation software on my iPad, which also allows me to use the same app on my iPhone, for £35 for a year.  To continue automatically updating charts for the whole of the UK thereafter would involve an annual subscription at the same price. 

To update the charts and upgrade to the same level of functionality on my Garmin GPS/fishfinder would cost a whopping £240.  That's just for the southern UK.  If I want to do the same for the west coast of Scotland, that's another £240.  I could save money by buying western Europe (including the UK) for £335.  Garmin have bought Navionics, so the pricing conversations between parent and subsidiary must be interesting.

[Graham W]

The challenge seems to be finding something sunlight readable and wet finger operable. This looks promising but $1,800 for display alone is expensive compared to a small Garmin chart-plotter package or similar.

https://www.stealth.com/ruggedlcds/marinelcds/8-4-marine-waterproof-lcd-monitor-sunlight-readable-display/

I've come across some rugged Android 11 tablets that have been specifically developed by a Belgian company for sailing https://sailproof.shop/.  Sailproof claims that its two tablets (8" and 10") are both sunlight readable and wet finger operable.  And they cost nothing like $1800, although I think that if in the UK, you will have to pay 20% VAT on top of the quoted prices.

If the screen brightness is as good as the claimed 1000 nits, that's substantially better than the 350 nits on my  unreadable old iPad and as good as a new M1-chipped iPad Pro.  Sailproof also claim that their Gorilla glass screens can be operated with wet fingers and gloves.  They do a Windows version but apparently that's not much use if you want to use apps such as Navionics.

Now all we need is a suite of open source integrated apps that tie together all the boat's vital signs, preferably wirelessly over Bluetooth.  That would give Raymarine et al, with their overpriced and proprietary technologies, something to really worry about.

[Graham W]

Perhaps we really are on the brink of overthrowing the expensive and tired old technology!  In the past few months a UK company has brought to market a Bluetooth depth sounder that looks encouraging https://echozilla.co.uk/.  Like the Calypso wind transducer, its app can do a split screen display with the Navionics charting app.

We're not quite there on costs yet.  A 7" Garmin GPS/fishfinder, with depth transducer and Garmin's own wireless wind system costs about £1400.  An 8" Sailproof tablet with Calypso wind and Echozilla depth would be about £1500.  On the other hand, you can't do email, hold a Zoom meeting or read a digital newspaper on a Garmin.  And if you compare a 9" Garmin system with a 10" Sailproof system, the costs are about the same at around £1700.

[AndyB]

Reading this I noted earlier Openwind was mentioned. I used this on my previous boat and was very happy with it. I developed code ( in Golang) that ran on a raspberry Pi ( running TinyCore) which converted the Bluetooth to WiFi. I then produced a screen via my own webserver on the Pi  which allowed a kindle to display wind/COG/SOG on various screens. The advantage of the kindle is that it is E-ink based and so the sun does not get in the way and you can make the numbers as large as you want so I could read them from the back of the cockpit. It also had very low power consumption. Tiny Core meant you could just turn the Pi on and off with no shutdown issues.

When purchasing Bagpuss, I inherited ( luckily and one of the reasons for purchase) from Jonathan sensors - a wireless NASA wind, depth, compass, GPS  which were all bar one fed into a multiplexor then into a raspberry pi. The radio and ST2000 tiller pilot also connected to the multiplexor.

I have produced another iteration of my previous boat and now have a Kindle display - see 2 of the screens reading off that data. I have also produced a WiFi data stream that produces 0183 sentences to applications such as Navionics and any other that reads WiFi. So Navionics now displays the AIS stream from the radio. I use a Fire tablet running Navionics but you cannot really see the display and this is the biggest down side of the  whole piece. I would also like to create a route and get the tiller pilot to follow it. This is my next project.

So the issue for me is the chart plotter. However I will wait. Just round the corner ( some are already out) are colour E-ink devices which run Android. They are not expensive will not have sunlight issues so will resolve the issues for the main display. SailProof looks good though.

WiFi networks or I hope Bluetooth networks will become the norm in the future especially with the low powered Bluetooth becoming more prevalent. A new marine standard is also emerging - NMEA OneNet based on ethernet - a move away from the car based 2000.  You still need to get power to the sensors not all can reside in the sunlight.  I would prefer Signal K and if OpenCPM was vector based would switch to it straight away. However its maps in the Solent are not very good - unless someone out there can tell me where I have gone wrong.

The best for us , I believe is to purchase a miniplex to Wifi multiplexor which creates a Wifi datastream and then use your devices to read off of that. It also can also output to wired NMEA devices ( both 0183 and 2000) which would allow dedicated displays that do not have wireless. However to use a Kindle you would need the web-server I have developed or something much better.

I was going to write an in-depth article about it if people are interested. 

PS - the screens shown are when I was stationary so some data incorrect. When you move the data dependant on True are correct so please ignore that. When you are on your own I keep forgetting to take pictures of the screen when I am actually sailing.

[Sea Simon]

Very impressive work Andy...way beyond my comprehension and "IT" abilities! Interested to (try to!) Learn more.

I can only add/comment that several years ago i brought a Kindle specifically to read newspapers, novels etc while sitting in the sun while on holiday/on the boat. Excellent device with E ink.

Hugely irritated to find their online services had been discontinued, but still use the kindle to read novels on deck, in the sun, way better for that than my new Samsung tablet.

[Graham W]

Whoa!  Like Simon, most of that is well beyond my comprehension but the end results (and the exceptional clarity of the monochrome e-ink device) are very impressive. 

Let's hope that colour e-ink devices continue to improve in definition and colour balance and take off big time in the near future.  Fairly decent 8" versions already on the market are in the £200-300 price range but the price should come down with higher volumes.  When combined in the future with Bluetooth devices and transducers integrated with each other in all sorts of AndyB-like clever ways, there's a real chance of spectacular market disruption hitting the current oligopolists.

And speaking of oligopolist Raymarine, I'm sorry to report that ex-Tacktick engineer Steve Moore has given up refurbishing secondhand Tacktick instruments for sale at very reasonable prices on eBay.  Raymarine either stopped supplying Tacktick spares or made them ridiculously expensive.  A brand new Tacktick single line data display now costs an unjustifiable £400 and a dual display around £500.  Raymarine thoroughly deserve whatever miserable fate awaits them in the future.

I was going to write an in-depth article about it if people are interested. 

Yes please!

[Michael Rogers]

I have added 'oligopoly' to my list of splendid words for which one then searches for opportunities to use them. (The grammar in that sentence is suspect, but I'm not sure why.) As I'm not involved in commerce or economics, I may have to wait a bit. Could one add in 'oligopolology' (= the study of oligopoly)?

Patrick O'Brien managed to insert 'floccinaucinihilipilification' fairly fluently into one of his Aubrey/Maturin novels. There are about 20 books, and I can't now remember which one it is. Anyone know?

Michael