Buying a used Swallow boat

[PYoung]

Hi. I am looking into buying a used BC23 and wondered if there was anything in particular I should be looking out for.

Being a newbie to sailing & having never having owned a boat before, it would be good to hear of any obvious points that should be considered when buying a used Swallow.

Do I need to consider the hiring of a boat surveyor? Do these boats suffer osmosis?

Also what would the general consensus be for a fair price for a used BC23? Might be a daft question, but I have no idea how much these boats depreciate.

Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Pete

[graham2burton65@gmail.com]

Hi and welcome,
you have come to the right place. As not one else is along yet I will kick off.
I have a BC 20 so no direct experience of the BC 23 but like many people who buy Swallow Boats I have a life time of experience in and around boats.

Your questions cover a lot of ground.
I will try

Hi. I am looking into buying a used BC23 and wondered if there was anything in particular I should be looking out for.  They are all fairly new new boats, are one or two reaching 10 years?  you are unlikely to find much wrong with one.  But any boat needs a careful check over by a knowledgeable person.
either a skilled owner, or trustworthy broker or a surveyor.  As a shallow boat that can dry out you should take a good look underneath for deep multiple gauges.  Osmosis is highly unlikely to be significant, however some say all fibreglass boats have some somewhere.  Not something that would worry me.  The vast majority of BC23s are fibreglass (all?)Do check the boat is not painted, unlikely of course.  one or two early ones were ketches, i like this but many do not.

Being a newbie to sailing & having never having owned a boat before, it would be good to hear of any obvious points that should be considered when buying a used Swallow. 
They are in some ways a specialist boat that is remarkably versatile.  because of the lifting centreboard, water ballast and high tech/simple set up they are modestly expensive as boats go.  with no standing headroom they do not attract a mass market.  With some tips they would make a lovely beginner / first small yacht.  Crucially all boats are a compromise, if you buy into the limitations and opportunities of the design you will be delighted.
crucially it is a trailer sailor that can genuinely be trailed, most so called trailer sailers are impractical to trail regularly.  This might be start and finish of the season to take it home?  or keep it at home to take to different locations each time.  That said a surprising number sit on mooring all season.  They sail as well or better than most boats of the same length.  The Outboard engine works very well and is cheap and easy to service, light as well. 
Can you live with sitting headroom?  it is pretty much the price for a centre board boat that really sails well.  you can access areas that the vast majority of yachts never venture.  So deserted rivers, bays, estuaries etc


Also what would the general consensus be for a fair price for a used BC23? Might be a daft question, but I have no idea how much these boats depreciate.  Sorry i cannot help on this

that's me for starters, so one else will probably add more.

Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

[Graham W]

Like the other Graham, I have no direct experience of the BC23 but would love to have one if I could afford it.  And like Graham, I would prefer one with a mizzen.

I think that quite a few of the comments in this thread about the BR20 could just as well apply to the BC23 https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1806.0.html. 

If the BC23 comes with a trailer, it will be braked.  This means that you will need to be pernickety in examining it.  For example, has it been regularly serviced with particular reference to the braking system and bearings?  The BR20 needs a good winch, preferably two speed, to make trailering more congenial.  I'd say that this is even more true for the heavier BC23.

I'm sure that a BC23 owner will be along shortly!

[Sea Simon]

Sorry, another non BC23 owner here...

GW has made an excellent point about the likely criticality of the BC23 trailer, with this larger and much heavier boat. If you plan to properly trailer sail, then be very sure to thoroughly check the trailer as well as the boat.
There is a lot of information about these CLH trailers on this forum.

I am delighted with my BRe, much less so with the standard CLH trailer.
I've needed to put a lot more time, effort and expense into sorting the trailer than the boat.

For the BC 23 I'd think a two speed winch ought to be standard? I'm planning that mod for my BRe.

Given that I previously had a Lugger with an Honnor Marine (the boat's builders) trailer, I know that much better trailers are widely available.

[graham2burton65@gmail.com]

hi,

Yes and Yes ...trailer design, maintenance, and servicing critical if you are going to tow it.

if you do go ahead.  One area of the boat that could do with a little extra is the issue of mast raising/lowering.

I believe, as standard it comes with little or no specialist kit to help raise the mast (beyond a standard hinged mast step).  To do it without anything extra is tricky, can strain muscles and stress the mast step.  If you are big and strong you may be able to ignore this advice.....

But I would suggest you set up a simple mast gin.  Swallow boats or this forum will advice.  Basically a simple pole that triangulates the stresses and makes the procedure easy and straightforward.  Essential in my view.

I have one that the previous owner set up and it surprised me how it transforms the risky procedure.

anything else?  Do read about fuel management and housekeeping for outboards (on this forum).  Buy the best octane fuel, keep it fresh, run the carb dry after each sailing trip.  Have the Carb ultrasonically cleaned by a professional if you do not know the history/and or if you have running problems.  Clean filters religiously.  Do this and modern outboards are very reliable ( better in so many ways than in inboard diesel)

good luck and do ask as many questions as you like
Graham B

[PYoung]

Wow. Thank you all for the fantastic responses!

My head is all over the place with the ideas of actually owning my own boat! Its quite an exciting and daunting thought at the same time, I would hate to fall foul of the cliched 'the only 2 happy times of a being a boat owner...' saying!

I wonder, to add another angle if I may, I should look at the BC20 instead? They seem to be easier to handle due to weight and somewhat cheaper to buy. Maybe this would be a more manageable boat for me and my (zero) experience in ownership & trailering a boat.

I suppose my main question would be, is it suitable for a family of 5 (3 young kids)?

It would be interesting to hear thoughts.

[graham2burton65@gmail.com]

Hi,
I have a BC20 and love it, despite not actually having sailed it yet......Covid etc.
you could make a BC 20 work but it would be tight.  are you happy camping?  you would probably use the cockpit seats as two berths with the youngsters in the double v berth.

tight, intimate, no dedicated toilet.  I would only consider it if your partner sees it and is keen.
A good step up from a dinghy.
if you stop on beaches/marinas etc every night to stretch legs and run some energy of for the tots.
be prepared to go very, very short distances in sheltered waters is my advice.
boredom soon sets in, you will probably be towing a dinghy for them to paly in etc
a little bit more maintenance being wood composite

[PYoung]

Hi,
I have a BC20 and love it, despite not actually having sailed it yet......Covid etc.
you could make a BC 20 work but it would be tight.  are you happy camping?  you would probably use the cockpit seats as two berths with the youngsters in the double v berth.

tight, intimate, no dedicated toilet.  I would only consider it if your partner sees it and is keen.
A good step up from a dinghy.
if you stop on beaches/marinas etc every night to stretch legs and run some energy of for the tots.
be prepared to go very, very short distances in sheltered waters is my advice.
boredom soon sets in, you will probably be towing a dinghy for them to paly in etc
a little bit more maintenance being wood composite

I would only really be using it for short coastal hops and occasional overnighting with the full family. I would most probably do longer trips with 2-3max (choose the most competent child!)

We do a fair amount of camping, so used to being cramped and achy, all part of the fun.

Is the step up to the BC23 a big leap in terms of cockpit space?

I presume you can fit a portapotti in a BC20?

When you refer to the maintenance I don't mind a bit of DIY. Am I right in thinking if it's a GRE rather than GRP then repairs are simpler?

What kind of price would you say is fair for a 2014 well looked after BC20?

[Julian Merson]

When I asked Swallow Yachts for a bit of advice prior to the purchase of my BC20, they said it particularly suited the lone coastal sailor - which suits me fine since that's by and large what I do.  I'm not certain it's quite big enough for a family of 5.  It's certainly possible, and particularly of you augment the 3 cabin berths with a cockpit tent and sleep two more there.  But, it would be very cosy.  The cockpit's not that big, compared with something like the BRe.
The other thing against the BC20 is that there are fewer of them around.
As others have stated, raising the mast on these boats takes a bit of effort single handed, but I've more or less sorted out the technique on the BC20, and with no additional devices - important for me since I tow home after each trip.  The BC23, I understand, is even more of an issue - a friend had said that it was stopping him sailing his so much - possibly why some sit around on moorings all year.
Both are really lovely boats.

[Rob Johnstone]

Hi,

Thre's no doubt that raisin the mast on the BC 23 is difficult, particulalry if your a re doin it by yourself. It was OK for me when I as under 70 but was beyond me after that! If you want to get an idea of a long sail in one, go look at the blog of my trip round Britain. It's at:  http://vagabond-round-britain.blogspot.com/2012/

Yes, there is room for a Partapottin in the V of the forard part of the cabin. Yes, a tent is pretty essential for living space if there's more than on of you on board. The cockpit is big enough for 5, provided 3 of them are small!

The longest leg of my trip was 13 hours, not to be recommended with younsters on board in the relatively small space.

But a great sea boat with a dry and safe cockpit .

[Sea Simon]

It would be very helpful to understand the relative sizes of the cockpits of the BR, BRe,  BC 20 and BC23.

Can anyone help please?

I know the BRe cockpit is much larger than the BC 20, but am particularly interested wrt the BC 23.


Earlier Q:
Is the step up to the BC23 a big leap in terms of cockpit space?

[PYoung]

Thank you to you all for your responses. I am leaning towards the BC23 for our requirements. I think the extra space she offers will be useful for the family.

I am wondering wether my car is up to the job of a BC23 though. I have a 2.2 diesel car (1715kg kerb weight) with a max towing weight of 1300kg and a towball weight of 58kg.

Can anyone advise if this car is man enough to handle a BC23?

Many thanks

Pete

[Rob Johnstone]

In reply to Simon (and, I hope without too many typos) the BC23 cockpit can sit 4 adults very comfortabley (two each side) leaving one of the four plenty of room to helm. Five is just about OK but six is too many.  Bear in mind most of my time sailing Vagabond / Riff Raff I was by myself - and more than one extra seemed a bit of a crowd!

[Sea Simon]

In reply to Simon (and, I hope without too many typos) the BC23 cockpit can sit 4 adults very comfortabley (two each side) leaving one of the four plenty of room to helm. Five is just about OK but six is too many.  Bear in mind most of my time sailing Vagabond / Riff Raff I was by myself - and more than one extra seemed a bit of a crowd!

Thanks.

Sounds to be slightly smaller than a BRe then?
I guess it depends on where the "additional 3 ft" is, so to speak?

Btw, I'm having terrible trouble with the spell checker on my small, old, tablet. Newer phone much better.
Why? Another twist of the arm to nudge you into an "upgrade"?

[Sea Simon]

PY.

Imho.
I would think you'll be near the limit, practically/realistically, if not legally?
Especially with a family and their kit onboard too.

I've found that traction/grip was the issue even in a car with plenty of power and torque, but front wheel drive. That was a modified/uprated golf gti, pulling a BRe.
Diesel does help, torquey at low revs, and a heavy engine above the driven wheels, ideally.
I currently use a 4x4 diesel, auto, suv (tiguan) now, but I wanted that for everyday use, not just towing boat. Great stability and very surefooted, tows BRe effortlessly. The only real limit is my own skill ?
The opposite of my previous (petrol) car, Which was more like trying to ride a motorcycle in that you couldn't take your eye off the ball for even a moment, or it would bite. Very tiring over long distances, even more so with the trailer behind.

Someone with real experience of BC 23 and a car will be along soon.....