Do BRe cabins get in the way?

[Graham W]

I suspect that the cabins of quite a few BRe's are not used for sleeping.  If this is the case, why not enjoy the benefits of the big open cockpit of the BR20?

Here I think are the advantages of the BRe over the BR20 (feel free to add, subtract and argue):
Less likely to turtle
The cabin is somewhere reasonably dry and secure to keep stuff, especially when away from the boat
If you do sleep aboard, you are more likely to keep dry and out of the wind compared to under the BR20's pramhood, with or without a cockpit tent
The cabin's aft bulkhead is a sheltered and comfortable place to sit against, facing backwards, and is a great place to install instruments (if you like that sort of thing)
The high cockpit coaming is more child-friendly
Can afford reasonable privacy for toilet arrangements (I suspect that for some families, this is a killer argument)
There are now more of them?
They hold their value better?

And the disadvantages compared to the BR20:
Heavier, definitely needs a braked trailer (it can be argued that the same is true of the GRP BR20)
More expensive, both new and used
Not available in lightweight epoxy ply
More windage
Not so easy to see forward
Can't be rowed with two sets of oars and storing long oars is problematic - less likely to do well in sail & oar raids because of this
Not so easy to lead running rigging over or around the cabin
Not so easy to get to the bow to fiddle with the front of the mast, unjam the jib furler or to anchor or moor from the front (but if correctly set up, you can anchor from the cockpit instead)
Reportedly uncomfortable to sit out to windward because of the high cockpit coaming
In the absence of modifications, BRe's can only lock or unlock their centreboard downhauls (older ones can't even do that) and it is difficult to install an auto release
The cabin is very small and claustrophobic for all but children?
The BR20 is more handsome in a hardcore sort of way

I haven't listed the arguments about gunter vs Bermudan rig as new BR20's have the latter as standard now.  My sympathies are definitely with old school tan-coloured gunter rig.

[Bill Rollo]

Graham,

thanks for this excellent summary of the respective merits of the two boats. I think some of advantages of the BRe would be further offset were there to be a reasonably priced and efficient tent readily available - Matthew's design comes to mind.

I would be interested in your take on the rigs - I have never tried the Bermudan rig and am very happy with the Gunter, but I do see the advantages of ease and speed of reefing which the Bermudan rig apparently offers?

Bill

[Sea Simon]

My BRe cuddy is definitely more of a seagoing-shed than a cabin. Very occasionally used for sleeping, but when i do its guaranteed shelter, dry and dark! No faffing with tents. No extra expense either (offsets BRe higher cost?).
The BRe cuddy is all the cabin we need atm, although that said health issues mean that it seems likely that my dinghy racing days are now over.
The cockpit on the BC 20 is too small for us.
A BC 23 seems an ever more attractive way of consolidating my resources, both time on the water and financial.
The chances of swapping my BRe for a reasonably priced BC 23 seem v low atm, given the current climate of frantic "asset accumulation". Seems to be a shortage of most things, and most of what is said to be "available" seems to be subject to long and rather random delays.
Will wait for now and see what the coming recession brings 

Sorry, I just can't love the BC 26 look, regardless of costs.
Have to agree with GW that the BR is the most handsome!

Carrying a tent on a BR must offset some of the BRe weight penalty, with nil convenience?

Who buys a grp BRe to raid competitively

Anchoring and going forward (moorings etc) are the significant negative issues to me. The anchoring is easily over come, mooring less so.

The cabin windage can make manoeuvres difficult at times, as the BRe tends to weathercocking, bow downwind. It can occasionally be difficult to swing the bow through the wind when motoring, especially in confined spaces without much way-on? Mizzen and cabin seem to make the boat resist?
OK once recognised and allowed for.

Rig. The carbon Bermudan suits me well, and the fully battened roached main is similar to my dinghy; saves thinking! Rigging and reefing is indeed easy, and the sail/boom stays up out of the way on its "lazy jack" arrangements, especially with the halyard rigged as a topping lift, and the main sheet attached to side decks so as to swing the sail pack out overside when lazing in the cockpit.
I would have preferred a carbon boom also.

I've not really sailed a gunter since my childhood Mirror days, so can't comment. I don't tow much, but can see how the long carbon mast could become a liability.
Gunter Advantages appear to include being welcome at OGA/Classics events (see BR Pippin at Falmouth 2021).
I've not yet had the brass neck to declare my BRe fat-head fully battened Bermudan main as a "four sided sail" to the OGA, but a friend with a >100 year old Itchen Ferry (gaff cutter) tells me that it's been done further up the south coast - just NEVER "win"!

Maybe 2022?

[Graham W]

I would be interested in your take on the rigs - I have never tried the Bermudan rig and am very happy with the Gunter, but I do see the advantages of ease and speed of reefing which the Bermudan rig apparently offers?

Bill,

Like you, I'm used to my gunter rig and am perfectly happy with it.  This season my main will probably get further refinements in the form of slab reefing on the leech (but not the luff).  As long as you have a double topping lift on it and take full advantage of weathercocking with the mizzen, it really isn't that difficult to handle.

Like you, I've never sailed with the Bermudan rig, which I think is now standard on all flavours of the BR.  However, I have seen plenty of them in action, both in front and from behind!  This is what I think are its main advantages vs the gunter rig (I'm happy to be corrected by Bermudan enthusiasts):
Undoubtedly easier to reef, even with all possible reefing refinements on the gunter.  Done right, the main doesn't even need to be dropped all the way to reef, unlike on the gunter.  From a safety point of view, ease of reefing is unarguably a very big advantage.
The main seems to be a bit easier and quicker to attach to the mast
Marginally faster upwind?  It doesn't seem to point higher but the fathead sail gives a bit of a larger sail area, which might account for it
With a one-piece mast, there's more space towards the top of the mast to rig an extra foresail or forestay, without it getting in the way of the jib top furler
Exotic sail materials seem to be readily available for the Bermudan if you want to pay for them
A wind transducer can be mounted on the mast top that won't get blanketed downwind, unlike on the gunter

And the disadvantages, to my mind anyway:
The luff slides seem sometimes to get stuck and/or degrade and break.  A square-masted gunter (but not normally the rounded mast version) can also suffer from jamming issues
The one-piece mast is much longer and is therefore more inconvenient to raise, lower and stow
The front of the boom is appreciably lower than that of the sprit boom on a gunter - more possibility of being hit on the head and less headroom at the front of the cockpit when the sail is dropped?
Marginally slower downwind, despite the slightly larger sail area?
Totally subjectively, I think it's not nearly as handsome as a tan-sailed gunter rig

[Graham W]

A BC 23 seems an ever more attractive way of consolidating my resources, both time on the water and financial.

If I ever win the lottery.....

Sorry, I just can't love the BC 26 look, regardless of costs.

Agreed.  I bought my BR20 because it looks old school, without most of the performance problems (especially to windward) that this seems to entail.  Newer Swallows seem to be moving further and further away from that design concept.

Carrying a tent on a BR must offset some of the BRe weight penalty, with nil convenience?

My official and discontinued Swallow tent weighs very little.  The convenience is whether to put it up or just rely on the fresh air charms of the sprayhood.

Who buys a grp BRe to raid competitively

Lots it seems, desperately hoping for plenty of wind!

The cabin windage can make manoeuvres difficult at times, as the BRe tends to weathercocking, bow downwind.

Doesn't that make it more difficult to reef without using the engine?  Definitely not a problem on the BR20.

[Ray S]

BRe cabin is brilliant dry space and nice to lean against and provides some shelter.

BRe brilliantly fast and easy to reef without engine - jib rolled up, mizzen in to keep bow up wind.

If one needs to raid with oars then BR20 no question , else if oars not needed then BRe.  QED.

Ray S
BRe 047 'Whimbrel'

[Ged]

Graham, would you mind explaining this?

'This season my main will probably get further refinements in the form of slab reefing on the leech (but not the luff)'

[Graham W]

Ged,

I'm going to have a go at this http://www.woodenboat.org.au/index.php/newsletters/highlights-from-the-log/30-rogers-reefing-refinement.  I'm not going to try slab reefing on the luff as I think it may get too complicated.

[Bill Rollo]

Graham,

thanks for all. I will be really interested to see how you get on with your reefing system.

On tents, as you say, a well designed one weighs very little, can be 'permanently' stowed within the spray hood, and takes 2 minutes to rig with 2 people and perhaps 5 on your own,  No flaff required (which is not to say that the cabin of a BRe would not be cosier all round!), but it is remarkable what a difference the spray hood/tent makes.

Bill

[Graham W]

Bill,

I think the BR20's accommodation options are great if you're at anchor because in the absence of strong currents you're facing into the wind.  In these circumstances the sprayhood does an excellent job of sheltering the cockpit, which the tent (if needed) then reinforces.  Subject always to blocking up the spinnaker pole tube in the starboard bow!  It can potentially get draughtier if you're moored up against a pontoon and exposed to wind from the side or behind, in which case the BRe's lid, adding 20kg of weight, is a definite advantage. 

[Sea Simon]

The cabin windage can make manoeuvres difficult at times, as the BRe tends to weathercocking, bow downwind.

Doesn't that make it more difficult to reef without using the engine?  Definitely not a problem on the BR20.
[/quote]

I don't find reefing difficult, i generally furl the jib and leave the mizzen sheeted centrally.

"Rogers Reefing" - linked- seems to be pretty much what is fitted to my BRe (luff and leech) as standard? I found the slack leech reefing lines a pita, so have fitted bungy to the slack tails, this seems to help minimise the hangman's noose effect of lines bunting down off the boom.

[Sea Simon]

Bill,

I think the BR20's accommodation options are great if you're at anchor because in the absence of strong currents you're facing into the wind.  In these circumstances the sprayhood does an excellent job of sheltering the cockpit, which the tent (if needed) then reinforces.  Subject always to blocking up the spinnaker pole tube in the starboard bow!  It can potentially get draughtier if you're moored up against a pontoon and exposed to wind from the side or behind, in which case the BRe's lid, adding 20kg of weight, is a definite advantage.

If i want to anchor my BRe bow to wind (not always the case, we often lie stern to wind so as to get sun when my wife is "crew"!) I use the west wight potter method. Easy, no need to access for deck:
Topic: Anchoring A BRe or similar small cabin boat, by the bow - From the cockpit.
https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,2102.0.html

Usually leaving the mizzen centrally sheeted. But the boat does tend to shear about in fresh winds. I deploy a drogue/sea anchor (from a large commercial liferaft) from the stern if it becomes uncomfortable

BTW...
I've not yet used the transparent cabin washboard (with vent!) that I made during lockdown 1......before the covid protective properties of perspex was discovered, and perspex too turned in to some form of "unobtainium".
The idea for that was to use it if stern to bad weather, perhaps when alongside a pontoon?

[Matthew P]

In my opinion (OK, I'm biased) a BR20 with a simple-to-use rugged tent is superior to a BRe. 
Easier to see forward
Easier to attend nautical emergencies on the foredeck, or even just simple anchoring and attaching to buoys
Bigger cockpit for social sailing
Less windage
Accommodates big efficient oars
Lower weight
Looks better - yes, really! (sorry...)

There are lots of posts on this forum about tents.  See https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=17&URL=https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,2166.msg14488.html#msg14488

Matthew
ex-BR20 Gladys

[Ged]

Ged,

I'm going to have a go at this http://www.woodenboat.org.au/index.php/newsletters/highlights-from-the-log/30-rogers-reefing-refinement.  I'm not going to try slab reefing on the luff as I think it may get too complicated.

Do you not have a  sprit boom?

[Graham W]

Do you not have a  sprit boom?

I do.  This could be geometrically interesting!