Flooded port cockpit locker while docked

[globetrot]

For reasons that I may write about later, my main mast and mizzen are deriged and off of the boat. As a result, I cannot use the mooring cover because the masts create the ridge of the cover. So the boat is entirely uncovered except for the spray hood (enclosed bimini).

This past weekend, we had two days of consistent rain. The first day was nothing more than a drizzle. Before nightfall, I took a walk down to the boat to check on the lines and pump out a bit of water, if necessary. At this point, I believed that I could keep the self bailer closed for the night as long as I revisit the boat the following day and pump out whatever rainwater accumulates in the cockpit. That night, however, we had more rain than we have had in a long time. Upon visiting the boat the following morning, I was pleased to see that there wasn't that much water in the cockpit, but I did notice a slight list to the port side. I pump out the water and move on to my second objective: check how much fuel I have so I'm prepared for a day on the water the following day. I open up the port hatch and can't believe what I see. It's filled with water. All of my gear and the fuel tanks are floating in a lot of water. I empty the hatch of its gear before I try to start troubleshooting. I check the starboard hatch and am relieved to see it has not suffered the same fate. It takes me a few minutes to figure it out but then I see the problem. The fuel line opening.

I now know that a similar issue was written about years ago (Flooding locker on BayCruiser), but the problem's circumstance was a bit different. Their locker flooded via the fuel line opening while sailing on a port tack (their fuel tanks appear opposite mine).

The water level in my cockpit had risen enough that water was pouring through the fuel line, opening and filling the port locker. To be honest, I am astonished at how small the margin of error needs to be here for this to become a problem. The fuel line opening is only a few 3-4cm from the cockpit floor, which means if the floor accumulates this much water = the port locker fills with water: kinda SCARY.

I do not see a way of fixing this issue other than preventing it (suggestions are very welcome!). So here is what I think I have learned:

1) While at a mooring, use a mooring cover when possible to prevent water from getting into the cockpit

2) If #1 is not possible, the self bailers should remain open. If the water level rises in the cockpit, it should drain out the self bailers. Hopefully, it drains before getting to the 3-4cm level! Not much room for error!

3)Not that this was a problem for me, but I have seen a few people ask about leaving the bilge filled or empty at mooring. I cannot think of a single reason to leave the bilge full while at mooring. I want as much positive buoyancy as possible so that the natural laws are working in my favor and encouraging the water to seek the lowest possible place to go: out of my boat through the self bailers.

4) I really need to find an automatic bilge pump solution to put in the sump so that I can keep the self bailer closed and the cockpit entirely dry. Not ideal because I was hoping to avoid having to deal with batteries and wires. (I have found this incredible solution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvWQA5sYSmg, but I am not confident this has the flow volume needed to handle a downpour).


Feedback is very welcome! I'd like to feel comfortable leaving the boat without being monitored for a while so I obviously have some things to figure out.

[Graham W]

A nasty shock!

You seem to be a bit reluctant to leave your self-bailers open when away from the boat.  You shouldn't be, especially if you're unballasted.  To give yourself more confidence in the bailers' ability to cope with lots of rain without a cover on, go out to your boat and, without getting in, empty several buckets of water into the cockpit.  I think you'll be surprised at how quickly the bailers empty the water by gravity.  And as long as you're unballasted and the bailers are open and unblocked (eg no seaweed, old sandwiches etc), there's no way that the water level should go anywhere above the cockpit sole, let alone 3cm above it.

However, you have another issue that needs fixing, which is that your fuel pipe seal into the port locker leaks.  If you were hard on the starboard tack and shipping large waves over the side (it happens!), this could lead to very undesirable consequences.  The seal definitely shouldn't leak and you should find one that doesn't.  However, I'm not at all keen on keeping fuel tanks in lockers when underway and my preferred solution (before I went electric) was to have the fuel tank on the cockpit sole as far forward as it will go with an extra long fuel line connected to the outboard.  If you did that, you could blank off the old hole.  And, assuming that you have seals in place along the top of the locker rim under the lid and have cut-outs in the two bottom corners of eack locker lid, you should be as dry as a bone thereafter.  But see what happens if you turtle in my reply to your query about the mystery hole.

[globetrot]

However, you have another issue that needs fixing, which is that your fuel pipe seal into the port locker leaks.  If you were hard on the starboard tack and shipping large waves over the side (it happens!), this could lead to very undesirable consequences.  The seal definitely shouldn't leak and you should find one that doesn't.

Graham, thank you for all of the good information. Regarding the excerpt above, it sounds like you have completely changed how the fuel tank was originally designed. I can appreciate why.

However, you say that my fuel pipe seal leaks. There is NO seal as far as I can tell. If I were to remove the stainless steel covering seen in one of my original photos, I'm pretty sure I would see a hole into the locker with no obvious seal around the fuel line. The fuel line can be gently pulled in and out of the locker with ease. Are you insinuating that the BayRaider20 is supposed to be sealed when new?

Regarding me keeping the self-bailers closed... this was more of an experiment. I live 5 min walk from my boat and can check on it at any time. I was hoping to keep the sole as dry as possible so that it was also as clean as possible and ready to go. Perhaps a bit of wishful thinking. I considered a variety of auto-bilge pump options but I am really turned off by the prospect of making things too complicated and having too much stuff to store. So from now on, the self-bailers will remain open, especially when I know a storm is approaching.

Lastly, I have moved things around in my lockers, especially now that I understand the mechanics behind the self-righting system and that the port locker is the wetter of the two lockers (these details were not part of my user manual ?).

[Graham W]

How lucky you are to live only five minutes from your boat.

I'm pretty sure that BR20's are not delivered with holes in the wall of their cockpit lockers when new.  Mine certainly wasn't and I haven't seen any others with it.  Your fuel line hole sounds like an aftermarket modification by a previous owner.  I had thought that the problem was that you had a seal that wasn't working very well but from what you're saying, there's no seal at all under that silver cover.  That's, er, unhelpful!  Is your fuel tank portable and look similar to the photo below?

I think that you have two options: take the cover off and install a tight-fitting seal (gasket) in the hole before refitting the cover.  You may have difficulty moving the fuel line in and out through the seal thereafter if it fits properly.  Or give up on the hole altogether and fill it in, keeping your fuel tank in the cockpit when you're using it.  Oh, there is also a third option - go electric

[globetrot]

Yes, my fuel tank looks exactly like the one in your photo.

And no... my boat is brand new! I have made no modifications so what you see in the photo is how the boat was delivered.

[Graham W]

Well I'm surprised, given that problems can arise such as the one that you experienced.  I suppose the logic is that the stainless fitting is actually an air vent.  So if your tank leaks, the petrol fumes will be able to escape into the cockpit and get blown away.  I'm not an enthusiast for this way of doing things.  Perhaps it's a legal requirement, like the one that says that large gas cylinders have to be vented overboard?

[Sea Simon]

".....Or give up on the hole altogether and fill it in, keeping your fuel tank in the cockpit when you're using it.  Oh, there is also a third option - go electric "

I think I will likely be dead before an electric outboard offers a realistic, affordable alternative to a 5 Gallon/25 ltr petrol tank, and a 5HP motor - I will certainly be broke!

Whatever, a battery with that capacity will take quite some charging?
See my earlier posts...my new electricity supply to my garage, to include An EV charger was contracted to be completed April 12th, at £10000. They haven't even started work yet!
Luckily my diesel, auto 4x4 VW still is allowed.....

To be more helpful?
I do like GW, and keep my big tank in the cockpit when in use, which is not very often.
No locker holes needed. Arguably safer too, at least for non-smokers!

OP. Could the seal be missing from your fitting? Sorry but the photos don't download for me.

[Sea Simon]

BEWARE!
Like LPG, Petrol/Gasoline fumes are heavier than air (something like 3-4 times) and so will accumulate in the bottom of lockers/bilges etc.
In the marine/offshore industries people are (still!) regularly killed having descended into a "pit" filled with petro/gas fume.
It's not just a fire/explosion risk.

Petro gas/fume will not "disperse" from an enclosed space via one small "vent".

That's why boats with larger inboard Petrol engines have (are often REQUIRED to have) "bilge blowers", normally interlocked with the starter so as to ensure bilges are purged before the engine can be started (all a bit like glow plugs, as experienced by the user?). These boats therefore need clean air inlets, as well as dirty outlets.
... and the fans are "spark proof" too.

Storeage of CLOSED cans/cylinders in lockers is RELATIVELY (but far from ideal, some compromise/common sense is necessary!) safe, in a controlled environment, imho.
Unless the user opens the fume filled locker while smoking....or using a torch/phone or similar ignition source.

In commercial operations, these hazards are taken very seriously. petrol cans are stored on the open deck, usually in a "quick release" type racking system so that they can be dumped overboard in an emergency.
There has certainly been a move away from any petrol powered machines/rescue boats - but to diesel, not electric, see above!

[globetrot]

@Sea Simon, thank you for your contribution. You bring up some good points. In reality, however, we're talking about a relatively small amount of fuel and short periods of time. I think it unlikely that, while in use, I would go an entire day without opening the locker. In fact, I would make a point to open it periodically to ventilate.

But enough of my speculation. I already have a conversation going with Matt @ Swallow, so I've put it to the designer to inform me of the theory behind the design and its intended operation. I will share feedback here.

[Graham W]

I'm looking forward to hearing Matt's explanation.

In the meantime, and for those of us that can't view .HEIC photos (what are they anyway?), this is the sort of clam shell vent that has been attached to globetrot's locker wall https://www.absoluteindustrial.co.uk/marine-c6/vents-c85/clamshell-vent-stainless-steel-aisi-304-p880/s5394.  Except that it has a fuel pipe coming out of it.

[Sea Simon]

@Sea Simon, thank you for your contribution. You bring up some good points. In reality, however, we're talking about a relatively small amount of fuel and short periods of time. I think it unlikely that, while in use, I would go an entire day without opening the locker. In fact, I would make a point to open it periodically to ventilate.

But enough of my speculation. I already have a conversation going with Matt @ Swallow, so I've put it to the designer to inform me of the theory behind the design and its intended operation. I will share feedback here.

I was trying to show how seriously some take this haz.

However, I routinely carry 5L of spare fuel in a pukka plastic container, inside a locker.
Applying some commonsense sense, this has so far been ok for me for many years.

However, imo, storing AND USING 25L inside the (effectively unventilated)  locker, is a thing I'd rather not be doing routinely. My big tank is in there atm, but it's MT; I try to make sure it's always stored MT....but....

....there is the issue of stale high Ethanol petrol, and the damage it does to small outboards to take account of too. In "normal" use, 25 L will last me more than 2 months...
See other posts?

Keep us posted wrt yard please.

[Sea Simon]

I'm looking forward to hearing Matt's explanation.

In the meantime, and for those of us that can't view .HEIC photos (what are they anyway?), this is the sort of clam shell vent that has been attached to globetrot's locker wall https://www.absoluteindustrial.co.uk/marine-c6/vents-c85/clamshell-vent-stainless-steel-aisi-304-p880/s5394.  Except that it has a fuel pipe coming out of it.

Explanation...me too!
I had envisaged some sort of bulkhead penetration fittting/gland. Not surprised this "vent" results in down-flooding.

[globetrot]

First off, I apologize about the photo formats. I did not realize you would have problems viewing them - also was having some difficulty figuring out how to get the photos to appear in my initial post. I have resolved this and replaced the original files with photos that appear to be visible in the message.

Here is the response from Matt:

"The fuel line as you have it, with no seal, is deliberate because, as you say, there is petrol in there.
There is some top ventilation, where the seals around the edge do not meet, but the fuel locker line hole is as low as we can reasonably make it, to allow ventilation and not allow seawater back in (at least not in normal conditions). It is probably ultimately safer to take the fuel tank out of the locker when operating the engine, but then not if someone trips on it or is smoking in the cockpit for example."

So, there you have it. As with everything on a boat, it requires a dose of common sense (and a bit of trial and error).

Regarding the 'top ventilation', to which Matt refers: The 90 degree top corners of the locker lack a rubber gasket. I'm not sure if this is standard or something they began doing with the higher number boats.

[Graham W]

Regarding the 'top ventilation', to which Matt refers: The 90 degree top corners of the locker lack a rubber gasket. I'm not sure if this is standard or something they began doing with the higher number boats.

As you might expect on this forum, there have been comprehensive and illustrated threads on the exciting subject of locker seals and lid cut-outs.  See https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,414.0.html.  Included therein was an enthralling locker cam video from Simon Knight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utx5lk57TU8.  This other thread included some uncharacterically bad-tempered exchanges about who did what to whom, with what and when https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1493.0.html.  The official yard solution (in 2017) looked like this https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=1617. I don't know if it has subsequently changed at all.

I don't have seals along the outermost top rim of the inside of my lockers and I'm sure that plenty of air (but not water) could get through if needed.

[Matthew P]

In commercial operations, these hazards are taken very seriously. petrol cans are stored on the open deck, usually in a "quick release" type racking system so that they can be dumped overboard in an emergency.

Having witnessed how petrol vapour can lurk in the bottom of enclosed spaces such as the cockpit floor where I make tea and porridge, I located my tank at the rear of the deck above the engine well, held down by cam-lock webbing strap.

PROS
Vapour hopefully will mostly blow away or drain out of the tiller hole in the transom.
Easy to dump it over the side if I set fire to something elsewhere with a stove.
Easy to manage tank air vent, connect line to engine, check fuel level etc
Short fuel line,  gravity feed to engine
Easy to remove for re-fuelling
Out of the way and unlikely to get hit or punctured

CONS
Vapour could still dwell in the bottom of the engine well?
Weight high up and near the stern - but not much compared to my 100Kgs lumbering about elsewhere
Exposed to sunlight.  Easily overcome by covering with a piece of canvass held down by the strap

Better qualified and experienced people may advise it is better to keep the tank in a locker, with all the precautions already discussed in this thread.

Matthew
ex-BR20 Gladys