Extreme Difficulty in Raising Sail ????

[JonnieandDee]

I am the new proud owner of Bayraider 20 Proper Job (sail number 57 built 10 years ago).  In the past we have owned a Drascombe Lugger, a Longboat and a Cornish Shrimper.

On my first sail in her I had extreme difficulty in raising the mainsail.  The gaff jaws kept on jamming against the side of the mast as the gaff swung to one side or the other even by only a few degrees. In the end I was obliged to stand on the foredeck pushing up the gaff jaw with my boat hook and heaving on the halyard at the same time.  I felt rather vulnerable!  The same happened on lowering sail requiring a lot of very vigorous pulling on the sail luff. 

All the previous gaffers that we have owned in the past have had round masts and round gaff jaws which meant that if the gaff swung to one side of the other the jaws could rotate freely around the mast ultimately limited, of course, by the shrouds.  On Proper Job it seems that as soon as the gaff swings out at all the gaff jaws can't rotate around the mast and jam.  The situation is not helped by the fact that Bayraider 20s, like Drascombes, do not have a throat halyard so the main halyard is lifting the gaff jaws indirectly and is not pulling upwards in the same plane as the gaff jaws and sail luff.  The mizzen was sheeted hard in so the boat was pointing more or less into wind.

Proper Job is fitted with a topping lift and, while this helps in taking the weight of the boom and some of the sail off the halyard, it doesn't help with the gaff swinging off-centre and the gaff jaws jamming against the mast.

Please can anyone help - I am desperate and so disappointed? 

Jonnie (Taylor)

[Graham W]

Jonnie,

Do you have a square section mast?  And a photo of the jaws against the mast that you could post?  A long time ago, I had problems with the jaws sticking on my round section mast which turned out to have two causes:
1. My jaws were too tight (they needed pushing apart a bit), which meant that the yard tended to twist around the mast and then get stuck in one less than aerodynamic position
2.  However you attach the halyard to the yard, the angle of pull up towards the flat part on the back of the mast must be absolutely central.  If the halyard attachment is slightly squint on the yard, the yard will not go up square. Some of us have attached the halyard by drilling a hole in the yard and passing the halyard through it from the front, with a stopper knot at the back.  Not everyone approves but I think it makes it easier to raise the yard.

[JonnieandDee]

Hi Graham. 

Thank you for your prompt and helpful reply.

Proper Job has a square section mast, the upper section above the gooseneck being of a slightly smaller cross-section than the lower section.  Because of the difficulty getting the gaff jaws past the gooseneck I'm lifting the gaff above the gooseneck,  belaying the halyard off at that point and re-attaching the gooseneck fastening before lifting further with the halyard.

I can understand why a square section mast and matching gaff jaws are useful in preventing the yard and the upper section of the sail from sagging off to leeward!  However it is getting the yard and sail up in the first place that is causing me difficulty!

I'll take a photo next time I'm out.

With reference to your other point about drilling a hole in the yard to pass the halyard through, I picked up on this in a previous post.  Unfortunately my Gunter yard is, I think, made of carbon fibre and drilling holes in that is not, as I understand it, an option

Thank you for your help again Graham.

Best wishes

Jonnie

[John E]

Jonnie
I have a bay raider 20 of slightly older vintage and have only had the gaff jaws stick once. That was on a very wet and windy day in Chichester harbour.

I have measured several dimensions for you
I have a square mast as you describe, and it is 65mm across
The Gaff jaw is steel, covered in what looks like a piece of clear ribbed hose and the internal dimension is 72mm, giving a clearance of 7 mm between the mast and the internal surface gaff jaws.

I have found it easier to keep the gaff jaws down on top of the boom with my elbow until the gaff is vertical before allowing it to slide up the mast.

Hopefully, this is of use

John E
BR 20
Wind Lass

[JonnieandDee]

Thank you Graham & John for your helpful replies.

I am getting there slowly.  The previous owner had put up a couple of single blocks at the mast head for halyards and I think these were getting in the way of the main halyard.  I have taken these down and provided there is nothing else in the way, the yard and sail are going up fine now. 

There was also a rudimentary topping lift in place but the hoist for this goes down to a cleat on the port side of the mast.   This, as previous posts have suggested, makes a huge difference.   I would prefer a topping lift line that comes down to the rear of the boom à la Shrimper so I will readjust over the winter.

I'm attaching a couple of photos in response to your post Graham.

Thank you again.

Happy sailing

Jonnie

[Graham W]

Jonnie,

I've drilled a hole right through my carbon fibre gunter yard for my halyard, as have several others, so it's a viable option.  I've had no problems with this over many years of vigorous use and haven't heard of anyone else having a problem either.  Here's the 'how to' post that I followed in 2012 https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,519.msg3087.html#msg3087.  More recently https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,2015.msg13388.html#msg13388.  By way of balance, see Matthew's note of caution following it.

I can't see any obvious problems in the photos of the jaws that you have posted - in fact, they and the mast look to be in fairly good shape.  Four other things to consider: the leather on the jaws can dry out and can benefit from a very small amount of grease every now and then (I use white tallow); the securing strop for the jaws might be better as a string of parrel beads (see attached photo) instead of all that metalwork, which can cause gouges in the mast; It's better for the jaws and mainsail strops to be on the inside of the lines on the mast, as there's less to catch on them; and the metal band at the very top of the mast can tip forward over time, stopping free flow of the mainsail halyard through the dumb sheave at the top.

[MarkDarley]

Jonnie,
I would add "and lowering sail".
Like you I have a square wooden mast, and like you I find it inconvenient.  Unless the wind is right ahead, the jaws will tend to jam on the corners of the mast.  In my experience, especially in higher winds, being head to wind is essential.  I seldom raise my sails alongside as a result, and generally use the mizzen to bring the boat into the wind.  The same is necessary when dropping the main.  If I even replace the mast, it will be with a round sectioned mast such as I have on my gaffer.

Mark
"Pippin"

[JonnieandDee]

On lowering the mast at the end of the season I was surprised to discover that the main halyard shreeve at the top of the mast is a dumb one (ie no pulley).  I have checked with the factory and, as the top 200mm (8"), is solid I am arranging to have a pulley mounted in the mast in place of the existing slot.  We'll see how that improves the situation in the coming season. 

Thank you Graham for your pic of your parrel bead arrangement. This arrangement with better quality parrel beads is almost exactly what I had with the Drascombes and the Shrimper.  From your photo it looks like your mast section is round rather than square Graham as well.

[Graham W]

Jonnie,

While you've got the mast down, it's a good idea to check that the steel masthead band (topmost metal bit in the attached photo) hasn't tipped forward due to enthusiastic tightening of the jib halyard.  A few longer term BR20 owners (including me) have had this problem and when it happens, it pinches the main halyard as it passes through the front of the dumb sheave.  The yard will probably have to remove the metal band anyway to insert a block up there and I suggest that when they re-attach it, you get them to reinforce the way the aft face of the band is fixed to the mast.

I was looking for appropriate photos to illustrate what I mean.  The one that I've used is from my boat in 2011 but you can find a clearer photo on page 12 of the owner's manual here https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=251.  My masthead looks very different these days (see my second photo below) and doesn't really illustrate the point clearly!

[JonnieandDee]

Last year, my first with a Swallow Bayraider 20 I found heaving the mainsail up with a 6mm halyard line rather challenging as it was difficult to get a good grip haul on the thin 6mm line.  Is there any reason why I can't replace the 6mm line with either a 7mm or 8mm line?  I appreciate one of the reasons might be insufficient clearance between the mainsail halyard and the jib/forestay halyard.

[Graham W]

Jonnie,

I experimented with thinner Dyneema halyards but got fed up with difficulty in keeping them under tension, either because they were too slippery or because of line creep, or perhaps both.  I reverted to good old stretchy 8mm Polyester braid on braid for both halyards and have never looked back.  There's a whole thread on diameters and materials here https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,927.0.html.

[JonnieandDee]

Thanks for all your help Graham.  Thanks to you and other like-minded Swallow owners we are able to enjoy our Swallow Yachts to their fullest potential.

[Sea Simon]

Last year, my first with a Swallow Bayraider 20 I found heaving the mainsail up with a 6mm halyard line rather challenging as it was difficult to get a good grip haul on the thin 6mm line.  Is there any reason why I can't replace the 6mm line with either a 7mm or 8mm line?  I appreciate one of the reasons might be insufficient clearance between the mainsail halyard and the jib/forestay halyard.

These clamcleat powergrips are good for thin lines,and are cheap and pretty much indestructible. Under £10.

https://www.clamcleat.com/power-grip-1.html

Only disadvantage is that they don't float!

[Graham W]

I thought that I had found the perfect (and pretty expensive) solution to getting a grip on things with one of these https://www.karver-systems.com/en/product-category/deck-equipments/cam-cleats-2/kjh-handles/.  However it turned out that it was made of French cheese and snapped in two with very little provocation.  It didn't float either.  Definitely not recommended.