Better things are electric........

[Julian Swindell]

I'm shocked Johan. I thought you Scandinavians were nice people who didn't build things like that.
Mind you, Daisy Grace is with Matt at the moment for a couple of modifications. I wonder if he could turn her into a "Remote Weapon Station Vehicle for Fire Support" with the ability to park on the sea floor. It would save on mooring fees.

[Tony]

Tony,
Pity the poor benighted foreigner,him learns English out of books!

Well,Johan, at least you made the effort. They must have been a good books to judge by the result.
The only Swedish your average Brit (me included) can command was picked up from the subtitles of the "Wallander" series on TV, or leering at Noomi Rapace and (lest I forget)from the instructive CD that came with my Handol woodburner.

For responses to your CBL suggestions please see the "Not all Swallow Boats are BayRaiders" thread. Cardigan Bay Luggers , I should remind you, are lit with oil lamps, not electricity and use use outboard motors that run on solid fuel.

[Tony]

Ok, folks?

It's fitting out time again!

Question:

Do I go for an electric trolling motor or a nice pair of (longer) oars?
They seem to cost about the same.

(The thousand quid Torqueedo awaits a lottery win - like so much else on my "wants" list. Should have taken up a cheaper obsession. Collecting gin bottles perhaps.)

Cheers!

[Terry Cross]

Question:
Do I go for an electric trolling motor or a nice pair of (longer) oars?
They seem to cost about the same.



Spend your hard earned cash ( or ill-gotten gains ) on a pair of longer oars

Inspired by the success we had with the "Seasnake I fitted on "IONA".
See   Electric outboard on "Iona!"(a Storm 15)  I rushed out and bought a more powerful one ( 34lb thrust )  for my 17ft Eagle525 sailing cruiser.
The "blurb" suggested it would push it along at 5knots. NO WAY!
   It pushes us out of the marina on Ullswater ok and, if there isn,t any wind, will maintain about 3knots but at anything stronger than about a force 2 we have difficulty in making headway.
   I know the Eagle is heavier than "FOUR SISTERS" but I would not entertain anything less than "The thousand quid Torqueedo " for use on "the briny"

Terry Cross "IONA"

[Tony]

An EAGLE 525? Good for you!  Bit of a collector's item that one.  As built by the Richards brothers at Morton boats – before the French plastic bathtubs undercut them and made production unprofitable. How do you find she compares?
You probably already know that Peter and Paul Richards are still running the "best chandlery in Lincolnshire"  if you ever need spares/repairs/advice   www.mortonboats.co.uk
I get most of my bits from there although these days they mostly cater for the racing types, I think.  The chat's  good, too, if you pick a time when they're not over busy.  (If they opened a coffee bar it would always be full!) They even sell Torqueedo's!
Thanks for the benefit of your experience with the 34lb thrust model. That's the sort of thing I was thinking of, so you'ved saved me some money there.
Wouldn't mind making my own oars if I can get the timber.
Can anyone recommend a source? ....and perhaps the make of a cheap-but-ok electric planer?

I still think that electric is the way to go.... lets see how Johan gets on with his fuel cell....or maybe the owner of BayCruiser 23 #1 could let us know how he's getting on with the Sillette system he installed?


Cheers!
Tony

[Graham W]

Has anyone tried installing the Torqeedo 1003 on a Bayraider? Quite apart from the cost, I suspect that the standard shaft version is too long to tilt up through the outboard well without fouling it. I think it comes with a two blade propellor (unlike the 503) so at least there is no problem with width.

[Craic]

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[Andy Dingle]

I saw this ..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/283299330333?chn=ps


Ron Marks free wheeling hand propelled 'outboard' ! - In fact a friend of mine has just got one for his tender to his 34 footer.. It really does exist, I've seen it!

Ideal for the purists out there ! Totally pollution free...

[johnguy]

Hi Graham  I had a new Torqeedo 1003 for my new BRe, against Matt's advice, installed new. I also had a spare hi capacity battery. It was a bit of an expensive disaster. The shaft is too long so the engine jams in the well when going up or down, eventually I broke the fin on the torqeedo off by accident. The motor pushed the boat along nicely, but it was not silent at all, very whiny, and I got quite nervous of running out of oomph when out in the Bristol Channel on an ebb tide. So although it was fine for moving from marina berth into bay and back it was not really man enough for open sea and it doesn't fit anyway. Now have a Yamaha 6hp, quieter than the torqeedo and with a big tank in the locker never feel fear of loss of power. Pushes boat at 6.7 knots easily, usually use at tick over, love it. Starts first pop every time using Aspen fuel. There is a thread about the Torqeedo and how it can be made to fit with a hinged wooden bit, but basically the long leg and big vulnerable prop are not great with the well and flaps whatever you do. I sold it on ebay to a man in Hong Kong and got back enough to buy the yammy.....still some work to do before e power is right for seagoing small craft I think.

[Graham W]

John,

Your experiences are all too common, I'm afraid.  Now that I've moved to tidal North Kent and no longer sail on Bala, I'm not sure that my Torqeedo is much use any more either.

But Torqeedo have been listening! Or perhaps the competition from ePropulsion has finally hit home.  Here's an extract from an email that popped into my inbox this morning:

"Travel silently
2019 will also see a new direct-drive, 1,100 W addition to the globally successful Travel series of clean, emission-free outboards for dinghies, tenders and small sailboats. The Travel 1103 C is the quietest motor in its class at just 33 decibels, the same noise level as a human whisper, and boasts a heavy-duty design. Just like the market-favorite Travel 1003, which remains the lightest and easiest-to-handle 3 HP equivalent outboard,  the new 1103 C  is suitable for boats up to 1,500 kg. The total weight is 17 kg, just 2 kg heavier than the Travel 1003, including the high-capacity lithium battery.

"The Travel 1103 C will be exclusively available with the high-capacity 915 Wh battery and boasts instantaneous throttle response, a stronger aluminium pylon with integrated skeg for increased protection from impact damage and an upgraded transom mount for more demanding applications."

The last bit is cheeky.  My interpretation of "more demanding applications" is what would usually described as normal use.

[Michael Rogers]

Andy, could you, in due course, get some feedback from your friend about the Ron Marks gizmo!? Either a brilliant idea or - er - something else. I'm sceptical. Apart from the physical effort required to generate - and go on generating - enough thrust (energy isn't free), how do you keep that squiggly shaft lubricated? The propeller design has to be good too.

Cheers

[Andy Dingle]

I'll do that Michael - I should be seeing him tomorrow (16th Dec).
I must admit too to a slight amount of ribbing when he turned up with it - he has discarded his 3.5 tohatsu in favour of this!

Here are a few you tube videos I found. There is probably more on it on the net somewhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELFU_j1m64A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqaFG0uRqvs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6xvKJTRvF8

I know it is geared 3:1 and the propeller seems very large.
I can't comment on the physical effort required but I suppose it must be on par with a pair of oars and of course dependent on what you're using it on and the tides/weather..

[Sea Simon]

Blimey - this thread has legs! started almost 10 years ago.
I guess that the fact that the core issues remain (apparently) unresolved tells us something?

To add my two penn' orth and inadvertently also add to the earlier "Johnny Foreigner" theme  Apologies for length of post - time on my hands - some of this may be useful? Scroll to the bottom?

Small four stroke outboards have become unreliable primarily due to the poor quality fuel that "the Greenies" have foisted upon us, and the associated engine design changes . I have had a new (but "old tech") Tohatsu 6 that couldn't be started after a month inactive; however, clean the carb, and all was immediately well. That engine went with the Lugger when sold - I was slightly worried that the first part of the engine to wear out would be the carb, I have dismantled it that many times.

My BRe has a "new-tech" Honda 5. No problems at all over the first season, but I am fanatical about fuel cleanliness, and that fuel is now only Aspen zero ethanol (expensive and difficult to obtain - that in itself must create an additional environmental impact of some sort?) not pumped petrol, unless on a long passage.
My old 2-strokes, a Mariner 3.3 (tender) and various Stihl garden machinery, all continues to run without issue, using "normal" (high ethanol) petrol; in fact i used to burn the fuel rejected by the Tohatsu in these engines! Old(er) 2 strokes may not be "green", but are comparatively tolerant of poor fuel.

And (almost) finally. A green pal (who has an air source heat pump central heating system on his house) loaned me his Torqueedo (Travel 1003, I think) for a weeks (sail!) racing, approx 30 minute run in and out of port each day; ideal for that use, and I left the Honda ashore. The Torqueedo lasted the week, with careful battery husbandry. Just as well, as we had no means to recharge!
My initial thoughts were - fantastic! immediate regret that I had not gone down the electric  route myself, but due to a variety of issues over the week (all experienced by others, as above) I decided the Honda was the right choice at the moment. As well as "range anxiety" per-passage, we were not able to use this motor for a coastal passage race, with extended river passages at each end (Fowey>Falmouth>Fowey). With the overnight to be spent on a buoy at Flushing, there was no means to recharge - at all. Didn't fancy leaving my pals battery ashore recharging overnight, alone! "Supply anxiety"?

The solution?
"Integrated Battery Assist" - have a look at this hybrid system on the Romilly/Roxanne web site:
http://www.romilly.nl/battery-assist.html
Ticks most boxes for me.
I would need to save up for the rather nifty bespoke "generator carrier", let alone a hybrid Romilly....

But then I can't afford a Tesla car either...or the (diesel) Range Rover alternative that a chap near me also runs, to use when his Tesla is not available (always handy for the school run too I guess?). An "entrepreneur" of some sort - presumably his arrangement is both "tax efficient" and convenient?

My summary: We appear to have prematurely "killed off" the small IC outboard, without provision of a viable alternative for "the working man"; very much like we are about to do with "dirty diesel" cars.
Not guilty - mine is a clean, green Euro 6 diesel, albeit a VW - ooops! I am awaiting my Amazon home-delivery of 10L of the Urea required to "fuel" it, even as we speak; bet that won't arrive in an EV.
"Green" - my @rse - a great deal of marketing/sales "kidology" involved hereabouts!

Rant over - shields up 
At this point maybe I should admit to being a mechanical Engineer (hence my DIY ability to "repair" my own carb - pity those who need to employ a man; inconvenient, as well as costly) who currently derives income from the oil and gas industry...
...mostly gas - if that helps my soul? 

[johnguy]

That's interesting Graham, and I don't doubt they will get there soon. But now my Yammy will see me out, so I shall cease to think about it.

I looked at hybrid Romilly and spoke to Dutch builder about it, even went to have a look at one. Nice idea but heavy boat and VERY expensive.... hybrid the way forward though I think for seagoing craft.

[Graham W]

I've come across an article on Torqeedo's financial tribulations https://www.proboat.com/2018/11/a-tale-of-two-companies/.  The article is well written if you're interested in that sort of thing.  The bit about venture capital investors wanting lots of control for the relatively small amounts of money that they invest is horribly familiar. 

It's clear that the original management of Torqeedo were fairly naïve, expecting to reach breakeven after only 18 months.  In fact they never made a profit before they were acquired by Deutz, a move that I still don't really understand.