BR20/BRe - Better than a Wayfarer mkIV ?

[RogerLennard]

Hello everyone,
I am looking for members' opinions about my next boat purchase. I regularly sail my Wayfarer at Carsington Water in Derbyshire. I class myself as being quite an experienced sailor, with Day Skipper qualifications. Over the last couple of years my children have moved to different parts of the country and so I am finding that I sail solo most of the time. I would like to introduce friends/workmates to sailing but the Wayfarer isn't quite stable and roomy enough. However, I want to keep sailing a boat with dinghy sailing characteristics. Ideally it should be easy to launch and recover. I will still be sailing mainly at Carsington. I'd also like to trail my boat to the coast for some solo sailing/camping. I certainly wouldn't want to do that solo with my Wayfarer. Sadly, having more than one boat is not an option.
Can members please give me some advice? I have been reading about the BR20 and BRe. Would either of these be suitable for me?
Finally, does cabin envy exist?
Thanks in anticipation.
Roger

[Llafurio]

Roger,
we had a Wayfarer sailing in direct competition with two BayRaiders 20 recently. In brisk conditions, the Wayfarer sailed singlehanded with no jib and two reefs in the main, and was left far astern by the two waterballasted BRs under jib, mizzen and mainsail. One BR sailed completely unreefed, and the other had one reef in the main.
The Wayfarer singlehander needed acrobatics, and some help from another boat to get his anchor out and down for lunch break.
-There is no comparison between Wayfarer and BayRaider. 

[Paul Beardsell]

Although each can perform well, neither the Wayfarer nor any of the BayRaiders/Cruisers is a performance boat. I'm regularly outsailed by dinghies in light airs. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong :-) But for picnics, for raids, for overnighting, for stability, the Wayfarer is no competition for our boats.

[Peter Cockerton]

Roger

I'm now no my second BR20 which I ordered new from the yard, I also sail mainly on a reservoir (Rutland water).
I do not take part in racing; mostly have the wife and dog on board so I tend to rig her for keeping her flat in the water under normal conditions for the day. When I 'm solo or have experienced crew on board it's a different story so I rig her for fast and adventurous sailing sometimes no water ballast.

To answer some of your questions, launching and recovery is very easy (once the trailer is set up properly) with just getting the tyres wet on launch and the swinging arm at the back of the trailer just under the water on recovery. I have treated myself to a two speed winch recently to ease the effort required bringing her back on the trailer especially when I haven't the time to wait for the tank to drain.

I prefer the Bermudan main with a carbon fibre boom and stack pack, I very much appreciate the ease of fast reefing and stowing of the dropped main, my first BR20 also had a Bermudan main but no stack pack so the sail always ended up in the cockpit when dropped.

I have owned briefly a BRe but found the cabin obstructed the forward visibility from the cockpit and also again in my experience it didn't go to wind as well as the BR20 under just jib and mizzen. At the age of 70 I have no intentions of using small cuddy cabin for overnight stays anyway.

Depending on the age of the boat you're considering purchasing, the developed modifications from first build may or may not have been put on; these are worth paying attention to and worth a good search and review of the forum.

If buying new consider the larger jib option (not self tacking) I'm very pleased with mine.

When first built the BR20 was supplied with a non-braked trailer, many have now converted to braked as once standard equipment is loaded the weight exceeds the 750 kg legal limit. I ordered my trailer myself for my new boat as the standard CLH trailer non braked trailer itself weighs 310 kg.

In my experience I would thoroughly recommend the BR20, with water ballast in and a sensible amount of sail set for the conditions "new to sailing"  crew will not be unsettled and enjoy the experience, put all the "washing up" no ballast and she will fly especially when the wind strength is above 12 mph. Consider a code 0 sail on a cheap RWO furler for easy single handed for many points of sail in light winds, The standard asymmetric I always found a handful for single handed and not easy to furl with standard ( non-top down fuler).

Hope this all helps in your decision making

Peter C

[Graham W]

put all the "washing up" no ballast and she will fly especially when the wind strength is above 12 mph.

In the Sail Caledonia sail & oar raid, competing BayRaiders hope for strong winds.  Otherwise it means that their crews have to do much more rowing and are less able to capitalise on their distinct advantage over lighter boats when sailing in heavy weather. Loch Ness can get very rough!  BR's (and the SeaRaider) have a string of successes at these raids.

Consider a code 0 sail on a cheap RWO furler for easy single handed for many points of sail in light winds, The standard asymmetric I always found a handful for single handed

+1 x 2

[Ray S]

I switched five years ago from a Wayfarer Mk IV to our BRe and never looked back!

After some 30 odd years of Wayfarer sailing racing and rallying  - we found the BRe to be a big step up in stability and power while still being easy to trail; having large lockers and the cabin to keep things dry. Reefing is very fast and easy with the fully battened main. The boat sails very well reefed even in lightish winds.  It's been an enriching learning curve to get the best out of her. We've also found the ePropulsion electric motor is something special in this boat after first trying a regular outboard.

Best of all after a Wayfarer is you can ditch the wet suit! 

Ray S
BRe 047 Whimbrel

[Matthew P]

You might also consider a BR17.                                                                                           

Similar in design to the BR20 but at 220Kg almost half the dry weight of the GRP version.  The BR17 can accommodate 4 people, has space for camping 2 people aboard, dinghy-like performance without water ballast but stable with 220Kg water ballast in.

For general description see https://swallowyachts.com/bespoke/bay-raider-17/

For dimension and weight comparison with other Swallow boats see https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=132

For stability demo video see https://youtu.be/WUFHSdUcaEE

Matthew P
BR17 Tarika

[RogerLennard]

Such excellent replies that people are providing. As I read about your experiences and choices I can see why each person feels strongly about the boat they selected.

I like: The performance and lightness of the BR17.
The positive comments from a long-standing Wayfarer sailor.
The sailing without having to be confined to a wetsuit.
The various means of propulsion.
The ability to sail in difficult conditions and reef rapidly.
The extra options like carbon mast and stack pack.
The possibility of adding a top-down furler.
The overnighting capability.
The relative speed.

I also think that they look fantastic. Beautiful classic lines.

I am very tempted to buy a Bayraider but am still not sure which one. I suspect that the BR20 is more the boat for me. A bit more roomy than the 17. The lack of a cabin is not necessarily a problem as I will not be overnighting frequently. I understand that the BR20 has good locking lockers and I could always go for a boat tent?

Thank you for your friendly replies. If anyone else has pearls of wisdom, I'd love to hear them.

[Graham W]

Roger,

If you're not yet convinced about sleeping on board a BR20, have a look in the library at the accounts of extensive cruises in them, with and without cockpit tents https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=262# (Trips, events and raids).  Also this account, which should probably be filed with the others https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?p=2025.  Sleeping boards are essential.  They fill in the gap between the benches to make a double berth under the sprayhood and foredeck - see the attached photo.

Yes, both the BR20 and the BRe have surprisingly big lockers.  The trick, if going away for any length of time, is good organisation of the contents - see https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,2117.0.html.

[RogerLennard]

I've been trying to get in touch with Swallow Yachts about the current price lists for the BR20 and BRe but I think they are all at the boat show! Does anyone here have any lists for the boats and their optional extras please?

[Peter Cockerton]

I could scan my final invoice for my Bayraider 20 which lists all the prices for the options available if that would help you to get an idea of what options you would consider.
Accurate to early 2020

Peter C

[RogerLennard]

That would be very kind of you Peter. Could you email it to me please? rogerlennard@hotmail.co.uk

[Nicky R]

We're heading to the boat show on Friday. If I remember, I can pick up the current ones and scan them for you.

[RogerLennard]

Thanks for that offer Nicky. I did get a reply from Swallow Yachts with some details and so I have requested more. Hopefully they can sort it. One disheartening thing in their reply was that the waiting time for a new boat is now well into summer 2022. There don't seem to be many BR20 boats around second hand.

[RogerLennard]

I wanted to let you all know that I have made a decision and have ordered a BR20 from Swallow Yachts. It will take many months before they can make it but I am sure the wait will be worth it. I still need to decide upon which bits to add on and which colour(s) she will be.