BR17

[Craic]

Edwin,
if price is an issue, I would rather see a 100% performing  BayRaider 20 GRP kit than an 80% BR 17, assuming both would be offered for the same price.

Imagine a Wood-Epoxy BR 17 would turn out dearer than a GRP BR 20, which one would you yourself then choose? Few people would go for a samller but nore exoensive boat.

I do hope that things work out for you finally so you wil not have to resort to a used Dabber.

[Julian Swindell]

I have to disagree here. I think size is really critical and can outweigh price difference, up to a point. My first proper boat was a Drascombe Dabber. I looked at the Lugger, which is only couple of feet longer, but thought that it was just too big. I had small children and knew that I would have to do all the manhandling (dad-handling?), launching, dumping the sails in a squall, etc myself, and decided the Dabber offered all the Lugger offered for family sailing, but in a smaller lighter package. For single handed sailing I would make the same choice again.
For a young family day sailing, I think the BR 17 or even a BR 15 will outsell the BR 20. For camping/sailing it is different and the BR 20 has the necessary room. It would also give more confidence for sailing on the open sea. I used to be scared witless in the Dabber out in the open Channel, which is one reason I sold her. My wife did not forgive me for selling her until I bought the BayCruiser, which has got a lot of Dabber characteristics and is light enou8gh for easy single handed sailing.

[Craic]

I have to disagree here. ... My first proper boat was a Drascombe Dabber. I looked at the Lugger, which is only couple of feet longer, but thought that it was just too big. ... For single handed sailing I would make the same choice again...

Julian,
I cannot see your point at all. The BR20 IS designed and prepared for safe single handing, that's key element of it's brief, purpose and fit-out. A boat big enough to go far out safely, and yet small and lightweight enough to handle and control by a singlehander in every respect, ashore and at sea.
You do NOT NEED a smaller BR 17 for single handing. On the contrary, the BR 20 should be your choice for single handing because it is more substantial and robust. When going out alone to sea, smaller is not automatically easier or safer, but it is notoriously less seaworthy.

Your analogy with the Drascombe Lugger and Dabber goes astray, because the BR 20 was specifically designed to do away with all the Lugger handling problems you describe. The BR 20 DOES NOT HAVE THE LUGGER PROBLEMS, so why should there be the argument "we need a smaller BR because the Lugger had such problems it needed a smaller Dabber"?

[Craic]

But having said the above,
I am not altogether opposed to a BR17, though for another reason:
There will come a time when new sold cars are much lighter in weight than today, limiting their capacity for towing boats.
Then, the issue will not be what the best possible boat size is, but what is the maximum boat size you will still be able to tow. Then, because of the light build and the waterballast, a BR 17 may well be the most capable boat, among those one can still tow behind a private car.
Anyway, both BR 20 and future BR 17 are both better positioned for that future than any other boat I know today.

[Edwin Davies 2]

It boils down to personal choice, and depth of pocket. I do not have the t1me to become an experienced sea sailor, so do not expect to be out at sea in difficult conditions. I hope I am experienced enough to know when to go out and when to stay home, based on the capabilities of me and my boat.

Thanks for the input, now I just wait to see what Matt comes up with.

[Julian Swindell]

I think it all boils down to perception and experience rather than sailing reality. I wouldn't hesitate to take out a 20ft BayRaider single handed now, after 20 years of single handed sailing. I'm out in a 20 ft Baycruiser all the time and it's a joy. But when I first bought a boat, a 20 footer just looked enormous. The three boats that took my eye were the Dabber, the Cornish Coble and the Bass Boat, all 15-16 ft. So as a first boat, I think the BR17 and even a BR15 will find ready buyers. After a few years they will all upgrade to BR20s and there will at last be a few second hand Swallowboats on the market!

[Richard Cooper]

Claus

As a current Storm 17 owner, I can agree with quite a lot of what you say. I'm sure the extra weight and stability of a BR20 is a boon single handing in more "challenging" conditions, but then isn't that exactly what the concept of BR's is about?.

Unfortunately it is never just about the sailing. Matt made the point about launching in less than ideal conditions, where less weight and easier handling is going to open up lots more possibilities. I would add to that ease of handling on land,less storage space needed, less use of finite materials in construction, lower cost and, exactly as you mentioned, easier towing with small vehicles. If the BR17 is big enough, and that is the crux of the matter, for the type of sailing which a person is comfortable with, such as river/estuary sailing (and here might be an opprtunity for a subtle distinction in the name!),then it is better than the BR20 for that person. The added stability of water ballast compared to alternative craft of a similar size/weight/cost, is going to be a real bonus and a clear distinguishing factor.

As regards the storm17/19, well it might not be totally relevant, but to be complimented frequently about the style and looks of one's craft is always nice.

[Edwin Davies 2]

That all makes sense to me Richard. Incidentally I felt confident going out into the open sea from Blakeney in a 16 foot Orkney Longliner open fishing boat with the family along. Made sure it was a good day and made sure I knew where I was in relation to the coast.

I hope I end up with the BR17. It does tick all my boxes. Do we need another, more atmospheric name? Cove R. Loch R. River R. I am happy with BayRaider 17.

[Craic]

Gentlemen,
different boats for different people, fine with me. Loads of boats out there to choose from.

Many different BayRaiders for different skills or different sea areas, there I have reservations. Loss of focus, difficult economy.

LakeRaider, LochRaider, BeachRaider? A distinct name would help to keep the BayRaider image focussed.

The difficult economy of a range of different boats will persist though.

The economy of the Drascombe range was based on that the mainstream boats Lugger, Longboat and Longboat Cruiser were all originally based on a single hull (that of the Lugger) and on sharing key components between them.

[Edwin Davies 2]

BeachRaider sounds good Claus.

[Edwin Davies 2]

Been thinking, to be easy to move on sand the BR17/BeachRaider trailer will need largish wheels with nice fat tyres.

[Brian Pearson]

BR16? Could I ask others about the BR17 and my long term request for a BR16. One foot might not sound much but around here it is important. All of our local dinghy parks are restricted to maximum 16'. At 16' I can keep a boat reasonably cheaply in the dinghy park, dry sail her off a combi trolley and enjoy her easily and quickly and be sailing in the Solent in minutes.

At 17' where do I keep her? On a mooring with all the risks of damage and being constantly hit by learning dinghy sailors. ( This happens all the time at Keyhaven)

If I keep her at home then going sailing is a much greater task. Equally so for other sailors who have dinghy spaces at their sailing waters.

So, for me, 16' seems to give a much larger commercial market, although it would be head to head with the Wayfarer, the boats are different enough for it not to be a problem.

There must be good reasons to not wish to meet this market? Is my local 16' restriction unique?

16' would also better differentiate it from the BR20.

I guess it just did not work at 16'?

Brian

[Edwin Davies 2]

My sailing club allow up 20ft. Personally I would be a lot less interested in a 16 ft boat. I do intend to trail, and store the combination on my drive. I hope to be sailing all over the country once I have mastered the art. Contacted an old friend today who lives and sails near Plymouth. Could be good for a holiday. He has a wooden Wayfarer.

[Craic]

... All of our local dinghy parks are restricted to maximum 16'. At 16' I can keep a boat reasonably cheaply in the dinghy park, dry sail her off a combi trolley and enjoy her easily and quickly and be sailing in the Solent in minutes. At 17' where do I keep her?
Brian

Brian, I am pretty sure there must be a misunderstanding in your club. If limited depth in the dinghy park is an issue, then surely it does not make sense to limit the length of the boat. Because only important is not the nominal boat length but the actual length of the complete combined package of boat + protruding trailer hitchbar + stern rudderblade protrusion, isn't that so?

[Brian Pearson]

Claus, as you know,most dinghies such as Wayfarers, are kept on a the trolley of a combi trailer, rudder in the boat, so the 16' length is the length when stored.

So a BR16 would be on its trolley only, the road base kept at home. Different style of sailing, but very easy and quick and hassle free.

If most sailing is done from this spot, then it is much easier. Then just slide onto the road base, drop the mast and trail to an event.

I was just making the point that there is a huge dinghy market that a BR16 would qualify for, where as a BR17 only qualifies for the trailer sailor market, which the BR20 meets anyway?

Brian