Water Ballast in a BRE 20 and how to empty it

[garethrow]

Thanks Nicky - what sort of pump did you buy?

Regards
Gareth Rowlands BR20 Halen Y Mor

[Nicky R]

It's this one, made by whale pumps. We've got the highest capacity one.

https://www.whalepumps.com/marine/product.aspx?Category_ID=10008&Product_ID=10001&FriendlyID=Supersub

[garethrow]

Thanks Nicky, I like the fact you can have the outlet pointing upwards. Does the pump tend to cut out when starting to suck air? Also - could you give me a feel for approx dimensions - I assume it is easy to get in and out of the tank?
Regards
Gareth Rowlands, BR20 Halen Y Mor

[Nicky R]

It doesn't stop pumping, but it makes unpleasant noises so it's fairly obvious when to turn it off.
We can't get to the boat at the moment to check dimensions, but we think it's about 15-20cm long. It's dead easy to get it in and out of the hatch you open to let the ballast in and out on the BRE.

[garethrow]

Many thanks Nicky - sounds like the one for us then - we will track one down.
Gareth Rowlands
BR20 Halen Y Mor

[Matthew P]

This link describes a self contained system including advice on safety of lithium batteries.

https://www.storerboatplans.com/plan/gis/diy-electric-pump-for-sail-boats/

Obviously the battery for pumping out a Bayraider ballast tank need not be submerged - but should be watertight as a contingency.

Has anyone further advice on the safety of lithium batteries with regard to over-discharge and water immersion?

Matthew
BR17 Tarika

[Llafurio]

Crude but effective.

[Graham W]

For cost (and maybe safety) reasons, if you only need the battery to run a ballast pump like the several recommended above, expensive lithium definitely isn't a requirement. 

I think that the safety concerns about lithium batteries (and especially LiFePO4 ones) are overdone in the video that Matthew links to, above.  On the other hand, from what I've seen of Goat Island Skiffs, concerns about getting very wet are well founded!

[Charles Scott]

Crude but effective.

Claus. Do you think your setup could be rigged permanently in the ballast tank and provided with a switch to be used as and when necessary, thus removing the need to access the tank each time? I wondered if the outlet pipe could somehow be routed through the back of the tank in place of the three rather ineffectual screwed bung outlets, and thence into the outboard well.  I have no idea whether there is a suitable hose fitting to get through the back of the tank and retain its integrity, nor whether it would be possible to drill a suitable hole for it. Similarly, one would have to route the wiring out of the tank to the battery. ( I have mine for the Echomap installed just forward of the centreboard case)
   I should appreciate your comments, but please be kind and gentle if my idea is utterly ridiculous !

[Llafurio]

Crude but effective.

Claus. Do you think your setup could be rigged permanently in the ballast tank and provided with a switch to be used as and when necessary, thus removing the need to access the tank each time? I wondered if the outlet pipe could somehow be routed through the back of the tank in place of the three rather ineffectual screwed bung outlets, and thence into the outboard well.  I have no idea whether there is a suitable hose fitting to get through the back of the tank and retain its integrity, nor whether it would be possible to drill a suitable hole for it. Similarly, one would have to route the wiring out of the tank to the battery. ( I have mine for the Echomap installed just forward of the centreboard case)
   I should appreciate your comments, but please be kind and gentle if my idea is utterly ridiculous !

Hi Charles:
Nothing ridiculous about your ideas. You have obviously given it some thought, and if you think it's all worth the effort, go.

I would not. I am of the "keep it simple" faction. Rather sail the ballast water out, and/or use some elbow grease on the manual pumps.
Many years ago we had a motto competition on the Drascombe Forum, what captures the attractivity of the boats best, and "Simplicity is Best" -or so- came out tops. Very true.

I personally look with dismay on superfluous electronics on Raidboats, the USA rig which cannot be stepped and unstepped in a raidlike jiffy any more, the disinvention of the original self-tacking jib, or, frankly, electric pumps instead of manual.

However, before you start making holes into your own boat, you may consider NOT leading the waste pipe astern into the outboarder well but instead forward into the centreboard well. Much closer, and will help with the electric installation. Plus, it would -finally- give your ballast tank the necessary air vent.

Hope this helps,

Claus

[Charles Scott]

Thank you Claus for your helpful suggestions.  I agree with keeping things simple, and certainly would not want to change any aspect of the rig, except perhaps to add a topping lift to the jib boom so that the jib shape could be improved for downwind sailing.  I love the self-tacking ability , which makes single-handing so easy. I also like the gunter main , which makes trailing the boat so easy. A one piece bermudan mast would seem to be very unwieldy.
   Back to the bilge pump : my boat has none, so to empty the ballast while under way means a struggle to unscrew the three bungs which empty the tank into the cockpit well, then wait for the single self-bailer to work this water out. When this is finished (20 minutes?) the bungs have to be screwed back. Meanwhile, the wind has got up again and I have to consider filling the tank again.  Do you have any advice as to how to make all the plastic screw threads on those bungs, and on the hatch covers less stiff ? They seem to be magnets for sand and grit, and despite regular cleaning , are always a pain to  use. 
   I have a good size Whale Gusher manual pump which I got off Ebay at a very good price, and have been thinking about how to set that up. I had wanted to mount it so that all I had to do to empty the tank under way was to get pumping, but again it would involve getting the pipe through the wall of the ballast tank somewhere.  Maybe I shall have to settle for opening the main hatch and pushing the pipe through that .
   More important than all this is that the Sikaflex bond between the cockpit floor and the port side tank has broken down, so any water in the cockpit gets into the ballast tank. Fixing this is obviously going to take priority ; I know there was some forum discussion of this a while ago, and the consensus seemed to be that old Sikaflex was a pig to get off.
   

[Llafurio]

Charles,
your boat is apparently not well equipped for getting the waterballast in and out.

For best result, you would need: a widened inlet bung, and three large outlet bungs in the rear tank wall, minimum Osculati 18.538.01 or better Osculati 18.538.40 or -.41. The metal body Osculati 18.538.01 is not prone to get stuck with sand.

Then, a permanent airvent in the tank so you do not have to open the main hatch to let air in or out.
And then, in the sump, two to three outside mounted Andersen "Mini" selfbailers. Two are good, three are better. One is not adequate.

And, at least one Whale Gusher "Titan" manual bilge pump. Again, one is good, two -on either side- are better.
Good luck with your Sikaflex renovation,

Claus

[Graham W]

Complete emptying of my BR20 ballast tank with a cheap (<£20) 12 volt 1100gph Seaflo pump was timed at 4 minutes 40 seconds.

[Charles Scott]

Thank you Claus and Graham for all advice. Duly noted and will now ponder what to do next.  Probably nothing, and just enjoy sailing for the rest of this beautiful summer

[globetrot]

Here is a video on another bilge pump setup that is a bit cleaner in appearance to the example above:

https://youtu.be/g83q0tJMHCI

I'm thinking of enlarging the drain holes of all three ballast drains and installing a bilge pump, similar to this, in the sump. The bilge pump should drain most of the water in the sump both when underway and when I'm ready to empty the ballast.

As for the battery, I'm playing with the idea of storing it in inside one of the water-tight hatch covers in the gunwale. Without disrupting the buoyancy characteristics of the boat, I feel like there is a lot of unused space in the hull that can be used to store smaller items, if prepared properly.