bay raider 20 Vs Expedition cockpit size

[Johnprterrichardson]

Hi guys,

I currently run jetski tours around the islands here in Guernsey and am looking to add a small open sailing boat to the fleet to be a bit greener...

Looking at a bayraider 20 and plan to offer day sailing trips around the coast. 

Just wondering what the cockpit size difference is between the standard bayraider and the expedition...

I am planning to run circa 1 hour long trips with up to 5 people plus me but probably 4 plus me ... Does anyone have any experience of sailing 6 people in a BR20 / br20e??? Is there a lot less cockpit space in a bre?? 

Thanks for any help / info

Jp

[jonno]

JP

If you're looking for a twenty footer with a big cockpit, you've identified the right boat: Bayraiders' cockpits are spacious. I find three folk are enough in the Expedition, four in the open boat. Two of you - in either boat - is lovely.

I recognise your requirement to squeeze more customers in. But if you must have five or six aboard, I strongly recommend the open boat.

Jonno

[Graham W]

Jonno's right that the BR20 has a much more expansive cockpit than the BRe.  However, its Cat C registration plate says that it has a capacity of four adults or 300kg.  That includes the helm.

In clear contravention of the bureaucratic niceties, I have taken five or six adults on engine- (and possibly alcohol-) driven jaunts in calm seas in non-tidal Greece.  The idea of taking that many while sailing in the boiling cauldron of the tidal Channel Islands would fill me with dread.  Say you have two or three greenhorns on each side of the boat and need to suddenly tack or rebalance because of an approaching squall.  They won't all fit on one side, one or two will panic and some or all are probably going to get dunked.  Not a good idea.

I suggest getting something considerably bigger than a BR for that number of punters.  Or limiting yourself to three punters and charging them a small fortune.

[jonno]

Graham's right. I was wrong.

Jonno

[Johnprterrichardson]

Thanks guys that is great and very interesting!

I don't know why but I thought I had read that they were category c for 6 people

3 plus me is pretty limiting in terms of number of people per trip and making it work financially...  but I won't be able to go beyond what is recommended!

Problem is that most bigger boats have smaller cockpits!!! Ha

Thanks for the helpful and quick responses!!

Jp

[Sea Simon]

Imho...no chance of six,  5 BEING "turn up on the day" FARE PAYING PASSENGERS sailing in a BRe, at sea, in highly tidal areas.

There is a user on here who does something similar though? Perhaps they can advise?

Further.
Not that i am disagreeing in any way with GWs excellent advice, above, but...

CE plating sometimes seems perhaps to be something about as "scientific" as the RYA  SWYTC handicapping system?
(See my concurrent whinge on another thread hereabouts!).
As much art as science?

My own BREx is plated Cat C for six persons. 540 kg. See attached!

I recently viewed a BC 26, also plated for Cat C, 6 persons, but in that case, six persons plus baggage totals 600kg. Cockpit much bigger than my BRe, as is the whole boat!
My 9ft Tehri tender (a very small plastic dory) is also Cat C plated, albeit for "only" two. You'd be hard pushed to physically fit/float more than two.
I was interested in Cat because (as prev discussed on here) my local race organising authorities were baulking at allowing my BREx to compete in a Coastal race series (limits between Plymouth and Falmouth), as it was "only Cat C plated".

Perhaps to cross reference my two current posts, the Django 7.7, a 25ft bilge keeler is CE Cat A (Ocean...self sufficient) plated...in France...

OP. However, I'm sure "The authorities" , not to mention your insurance Co would take a very dim view of any perceived overloading/ misuse etc, especially with fare paying passengers.

Given the above, common sense needs to prevail.

This not a criticism of anyone, yard etc. Just take it all not necessarily as gospel, and CE compliance is most definitely not some sort of get out of jail free card.

...and don't start me on "wheel marked" marine equipment 

[emf]

I have had 5 in my BRe cockpit, with an obvious spot empty for the 6th.  The problem is that with 6 you can't have more rail meat on the windward side, so reef early and/or use the water ballast.

[Ged]

Wayfarer dinghies are rated for 6 people, it seems crazy that a Bayraider can only accommodate 4!

It's also important to remember that a 'person' according to RCD only weighs 75Kg...

My storm 17 is only rated for 215Kg

[Llafurio]

Of course the BR20 can take 6, though it doesn't make much sense if you cramp the boat so the crew hands cannot really move to windward in a tack or jibe.

The reason the BR 20s were officially rated for "4" was that it was thought at the time that the waterballast tank had to be full (300 ltrs.) during testing for swamped buoyancy capacity. This was erring on the side of caution, not a requirement IMO.
In reality, if you have enough able crew (3-4), there is no need for waterballast at all, even in heavy weather, so -theoretically- you could add another 4 crew á 75kgs to the official max. crew number.
Though, again, to fill up the cockpit with so many crew that they cannot shift their weight to windward any more makes no sailing sense, and is IMO unsafe for that reason.
C.

[Sea Simon]

Wayfarer dinghies are rated for 6 people, it seems crazy that a Bayraider can only accommodate 4!

It's also important to remember that a 'person' according to RCD only weighs 75Kg...

My storm 17 is only rated for 215Kg

Yes!
See my above re "ridiculousness" 

History.
An "official" "person" (under UK Merchant Shippjng Regs) only weighed 67kg (imperialy ~10 1/2 stone), up until about 1990/95? Thus the current 75kg is a relatively recent increase.
These increases in weights made a big difference, with very expensive consequences to some ferry/ passenger ship companies, operating with hundreds if not thousands of pax.
The cumulative decrease in pax carrying capacity was a very big issue. Not simply in terms of lost revenues, but also in terms of vessel stability and other knock-on, perhaps unintended consequences.

[Sea Simon]

We regularly use my BRe with six onboard.
Six being 4 adults and 2 kids. Plate doesn't differentiate.
Usually NOT SAILING, but perhaps with jib n mizzen...and usually in the harbour/river, or for a trip to the beach, close inshore, on a sunny, calm day. Again plate dosent really differentiate adequately....Cat C conditions could be quite onerous for a boat this size, loaded to "capacity".
My understanding is that the BRex is Cat C compliant only with water ballast in, and therefore self righting? I may be wrong?

The main, and its sheet, present a significant hazard to the unskilled...in many ways, not all of them obvious.
I recall a fatality on a medium size cruiser due to a crew member being struck in the face/head not by the boom, but by the fine adjustment blocks buried within the main sheet falls.

Regardless of what my CE plate says, I would not feel safe doing otherwise, and as the owner/skipper/operator that decision, and responsibility, is pretty much mine.

...imho!

[Graham W]

An "official" "person" (under UK Merchant Shippjng Regs) only weighed 67kg (imperialy ~10 1/2 stone), up until about 1990/95? Thus the current 75kg is a relatively recent increase.

I used to dream of being 75kg......

[Sea Simon]

Blank CE Plates available here..."problem solved"