Is It Me or Has The World Gone Mad

[garethrow]

Is it me, or has the world gone mad? (warning – Grumpy Old Man territory)

I made a rare but pleasant trip to Force 4 Chandlery in Cardiff the other day, instead of ordering online. Apart from feeling like the proverbial boy in a sweet shop with not enough pocket money to acquire most of what I would like, I purchased a new suit of oilskins – the "Windward Offshore" type. Now, I didn't actually want a suit (trousers + jacket) as my current trousers are fine, just the jacket as my current garment is somewhat post its best. (As an aside I fund this out by lending it to the first mate when she 'forgot' hers and she was not impressed at how wet she got in a thunderstorm!) I was told by the very helpful shop assistant that yes I was welcome to buy just the jacket at a price of £170, but if I bought it with the trousers, the price would be £150. After adjusting my hearing aid I asked him to repeat this information – but yes, it is cheaper to buy two pieces of waterproof clothing than one. When I asked for an explanation of this phenomenon, I was met with the verbal equivalent of the Gaelic shrug.

I then went on to enquire about two pack paint and varnish – of which I am particularly fond of using as its durability and finish tend to be much better than single pack equivalents. International Yacht Paints have stopped selling their range – unless you are a 'professional' – and can afford to buy a gallon at a time. The apparent reason for this is that the product is harmful to fish (though I assume this must be in its liquid form). So – it's OK to be harmful to fish with a gallon or more at your disposal but not with a 750ml tin. Hmmmm. The helpful assistant did point me in the direction of Epifanes who still sell a 2 pack equivalent varnish and range of paints (with the added advantage of being a lot cheaper than International). I asked if this product was not 'harmful to fish' and was told maybe, but the manufacturers were Dutch and were not so concerned at this rather remote possibility – presumably assuming that having paid a handsome price for the stuff, one would use it to paint you boat rather than pour it in the sea?? Has anyone else tried Epifanes two pack paint or varnish – any good?

Happy sailing everyone

Regards

Gareth Rowlands
GRP BR20 Halen Y Mor

[Sea Simon]

You have my sympathy...and a very great deal of empathy too!

Maybe retiring has given me the extra time to identify, and think about, so much more of this blatant nonsense? But, I don't  think you're too wrong!
Hereabouts we are in the very painful throes of changing (County-wide) to a new household waste recycling/collection scheme. This has easily eclipsed my fellow grumpy old farts usual moaning topics of planning and potholes, but it at least seems to have united most generations to whinge together.
Don't start me on the local water companies plans to build a sea water desalination plant to "protect our water supplies". We've barely had 3 consecutive dry days in months. The sea water intakes (and brine dump) are proposed to be within 1/4 mile of the main sewer outfall THEY installed about 10 years ago...

Ps, I'll take those (free) unwanted oilskin trousers off you if it's "better for your personal wellbeing " 

[garethrow]

Thanks Simon

Alas, the bin men took my old serviceable trousers away this morning and if I give you my new ones I shall be trouserless!

Sounds like your water company are taking water recycling seriously.

Any views on Epifanes (as a paint / varnish rather than as a fish killer)?

Gareth Rowlands
GRP BR20 Halen Y Mor

[Sea Simon]

Epifanes single pack varnish (the ultra high UV protection one) is my favourite. Have preferred for years.
Sorry, no experience with their two packs.

My current boat hull is painted with International perfection two pack, was from new.
Seems good, still shining...
Bleddy expensive for the touch up can that I've  had to buy, and similar "professionals only" nonsense.  Same rubbish with Boracol teak deck treatment too...
I once was a "marine pro" and now generally just BS when needed. Usually get away with it!

Biggest issue with two packs, in my very limited experience, is that "hardener" goes off quickly/easily and the buggers won't  sell you more hardener. I've yet to find out what exactly this chemical is. I'm  sure it must be readily available from professional  paint suppliers?

[Mark Rushton]

Just before Christmas I bought an old National 12 to race with my daughter. It required its deck revarnishing, so I tried to buy some more International Perfection Plus and had the same issue you described.

I phoned International and spoke to one of their technical people. Apparently the issue is that International Perfection Plus/ Pro contains diisocyanates and it has now been mandated that products containing these can only be applied by trained personnel. This is entirely aimed at the professional market who use the vast majority of these products. Unfortunately for the amateurs, who are not an issue because they use so little, they are the collateral damage to enforce training of the professionals.

The man at International recommended Epifanes, as did a chap I spoke to from West Epoxy. The Epifanes product does not use diisocynates so is unaffected by the change in legislation.

I sanded the National 12's deck back to bare wood. Applied three coats of West epoxy, then sanded that flat, before applying the two pack Epifanes. In the harsh light of my garage I was disappointed to see some tiny bubbles in the varnish, however outside in sunshine the bubbles are invisible. I don't remember seeing these micro-bubbles with International Perfection Plus, but I have only ever applied that to my carbon mast.

I can't help you with any information about longevity, except to say it lasts at least three weeks!

Mark Rushton
BC23 080 Sulis
Ex BRe 001

[TheOldDuffer]

I don't remember seeing these micro-bubbles with International Perfection Plus, but I have only ever applied that to my carbon mast.


Mark Rushton
BC23 080 Sulis
Ex BRe 001

Why varnish the carbon mast? I ask because I've noted some abrasion on my carbon mizzen mast. A protective coat over the abraded area?

[Llafurio]

Gareth,
I think what caused your disbelief was actually a misunderstanding.

On the Force4 website there is a Windward OFFSHORE jacket , which is more expensive than the Windward COASTAL suit for 149.95. https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Windward/Coastal-Suit/66UQ

If you buy a complete OFFSHORE suit, the price would be over 300.00.

OFFSHORE and COASTAL may look alike, but are materially different products.

I think the world is not gone mad, yet.

[Llafurio]

Why varnish the carbon mast?

: UV protection.

[garethrow]

Thanks Mark - useful information on Epifanes

Re micro bubbles in varnish. The recommendation from IY Paints is to let your pot of mixed varnish stand for 30 mins after mixing before use to allow bubbles to rise / escape - I have never bothered doing this, but maybe neded with Epifanes?

Regards

Gareth Rowlands
GRP BR20 Halen Y Mor

[Mark Rushton]

I could not see any bubbles in the pot, and my feeling was that they appeared after application. I used a brush to apply, maybe I should try a roller next time.

Anyway, the bubbles don't seem to be visible in sunlight, so it probably does not matter, particularly as the two pack polyurethane is only there as sunscreen for the epoxy, which is doing the sealing.

As Claus said, carbon spars need varnishing every so often to protect them from UV. It's slightly ironic that you buy plastic boats to avoid having to varnish and paint them, then discover that you have to varnish carbon masts.

The scary bit about varnishing carbon spars is removing the old varnish. A tungsten carbide scraper works really well, but you spend the whole time worrying that the sharp and hard tool will damage the laminate.

[Llafurio]

...
As Claus said, carbon spars need varnishing every so often to protect them from UV. ...

To be honest, I built my carbon masts in 2007. I varnished them only once then, with clear DD two-pack, never again, and I have been using them on different boats since, and am still using them today, without any problems.

Windsurfer masts (mizzen and topmast) come well protected from the manufacturers, and do not require a UV topcoat.

[Sea Simon]

I phoned International and spoke to one of their technical people. Apparently the issue is that International Perfection Plus/ Pro contains diisocyanates and it has now been mandated that products containing these can only be applied by trained personnel. This is entirely aimed at the professional market who use the vast majority of these products. Unfortunately for the amateurs, who are not an issue because they use so little, they are the collateral damage to enforce training of the professionals.

The man at International recommended Epifanes, as did a chap I spoke to from West Epoxy. The Epifanes product does not use diisocynates so is unaffected by the change in legislation.

Mark Rushton
BC23 080 Sulis
Ex BRe 001

Some sikkaflex now seems to be subject to similar warnings/controls due to isocyanates...

My personal exposure limits to such products as Sikkaflex and International Perfection as much due to my wallet, as my work projects.