BRe rope specifications - mainsail hoisting issues

[Roger A]

A quick question please. I'm in the process of replacing some halyards and sheets on my BRe.

Does anyone know the recommended rope diameters for the following, mine are worn and difficult to measure.

Main Halyard (Bermuda fully battened)
Jib Halyard
Jib Sheets

Thanks
Roger

[Sea Simon]

Sorry, can't recall rope Ds.

But I do recall
1. Upgrade to Dynema for both halyards.  Makes a big difference to the ability to flatten, and keep flat, the furling jib in strong winds, and maintains rig tension. My original halyards, and shroud-end lacings seemed to be elastic!
A dyneema main halyard ensures that the cunningham remains effective in high winds.
2. Buy a longer main halyard than you think you need, as that horrible sharp, angry little block at the mast head cuts the main halyard. The sharp alloy sail headboard doesn't help.
You can then shorten off the damaged mast top end as needed, and make the rope run last longer.
I brought just enough the first time, and soon regretted it.
3. I found Rooster "Polilite sheets" to be effective on the jib. They don't self-tangle like cheap braid on braid, but are not too expensive.
You may have your own preference?

[Graham W]

This will probably derail Roger's original question while we wait for Moses to come down the mountain with a definitive answer on BRe diameters. 

I tried Dyneema halyards on my old-style gunter-rigged BR20 when the material was first broadly commercialised.  The idea being that the string was lighter and being strong could also be used at smaller diameters. 

Maybe Dyneema and its variants have improved since those early days (heat treating? Pre-stretching?) but I had a real problem with it.  My halyards (jib and main) suffered from Dyneema creep, where the fibres gradually elongate to their final permanent resting position.  Many think that Dyneema doesn't stretch, which is true, but are then puzzled when it elongates.  I've experienced it a few times. including on my shroud strops.  It was so bad on my two halyards that I went back to good old stretchy polyester, which doesn't seem to stretch much at all but acts as a bit of a shock absorber under tension.

The other issue that I had with smaller diameter Dyneema (6mm instead of the standard 8mm polyester) was that it was really hard on the hands. 

[Ape Ears]

Size of rope determined by fittings on boat. Do you have horned cleats, spinlock or Barton fittings to make fast main halyard ?

Self tacking or conventional jib ? Again diameter of fairleads , clamcleats or spinlocks ?

Alloy or plastic head board. Bottom hole on headboard used to align halyard with sheave. See attached photo of current fitting.

Mast track needs to be well lubricated. Suggest Sailkote Drylube.  Sorry for abbreviation. Last attempted post seemed to be blocked by spam filter as we are still up a mountain abroad !

[Sea Simon]

I find Camcleat power grip cleats are excellent for sweating up smaller D, hard ropes like the BRe main halyard. No need to winch!

You can occasionally  find them as low as £8. If you are like me, I suggest buying two!

https://www.clamcleat.com/power-grip-1.html

Eg, my current boat's cunningham. With a cascade added, this tool means that I don't need to winch the 6mm dyneema control line thru the spin lock clutch, I can now just pull...

[Roger A]

Thanks everyone for your very helpful replies.

I've modified the topic so it describes the real issue that I'm trying to solve - why is my BRe mainsail so difficult to hoist when other owners report that it is an easy task?!

I've been working through the possible causes..
Spinlock clutch- works well
Deck blocks - all working well
Track - now carefully cleaned and lubricated with Sailkote Mclube - will see if that helps.
Halyard - badly worn near masthead end and seems too big for the masthead block - replace with smaller line? And possibly dyeema?!
Headboard- is metal but  I've been using the higher of the two attachment points so will try the lower one per Andrew's advice.
The masthead block - position alongside the track seems strange to me but Andrew's is the same although his block is different see pics of mine. May change the block, move its position, cut off the top part of the track.

Will report on progress.

Thanks again for your comment's more very welcome!

Roger

[Ape Ears]

Roger, I was tempted to cut off the top of the track and realign the masthead block too, but this was unnecessary when other sources of friction were removed. For example outhaul, reefing lines, downhauls and Cunningham all need to be well slackened off.

The main halyard is at a 45 degree angle when fully hoisted when the lower hole in the headboard is used. Also make sure the halyard is not crossed over the track and is on the same side as the sheave when hoisting.

It helps to have the boom elevated with the lazyjacks when hoisting the main.

It looks as if the top of your mast has been replaced. Is this indicative of previous stress if friction has not been reduced ?

It should not be necessary to use the winch to hoist the main.

Can you also try topping or tailing the halyard, or reverse it upside down, to lose the frayed section, before incurring unnecessary expense ?

Kind regards, Andrew

[Graham W]

I find Camcleat power grip cleats are excellent for sweating up smaller D, hard ropes like the BRe main halyard.

You can occasionally  find them as low as £8. If you are like me, I suggest buying two!

https://www.clamcleat.com/power-grip-1.html

If you need to get a grip on larger diameter strings, don't be tempted to buy one of these substantially more expensive French alternatives https://www.force4.co.uk/item/Karver/Jaws-Handle-Grey/JBN.  I had one that snapped in two under not very much tension at all.  I got my money back from Karver under guarantee, although not before being treated like some sort of malicious fraudster.

[Sea Simon]

Roger, I was tempted to cut off the top of the track and realign the masthead block too, but this was unnecessary when other sources of friction were removed. For example outhaul, reefing lines, downhauls and Cunningham all need to be well slackened off.

The main halyard is at a 45 degree angle when fully hoisted when the lower hole in the headboard is used. Also make sure the halyard is not crossed over the track and is on the same side as the sheave when hoisting.

It helps to have the boom elevated with the lazyjacks when hoisting the main.

It looks as if the top of your mast has been replaced. Is this indicative of previous stress if friction has not been reduced ?

It should not be necessary to use the winch to hoist the main.

Can you also try topping or tailing the halyard, or reverse it upside down, to lose the frayed section, before incurring unnecessary expense ?

Kind regards, Andrew

Yes, All of the above!
However, it never occurred to me to use the lower headboard hole (if there was one?). I did resort to mechanically "fairing/easing" its sharp angry aluminim edges. No other mods.
Never needed to winch. My only issue was damaging the halyard.
Main always went up/down easily, once track was cleaned n lubed.

[PeterDT]

I had the same problems with hoisting the main.
Two tips (worked for me):
- clean rail at the start of the season with brush and water (car washing tools) and when dry spray with sometihing like PTFE spray
- use a bead at the end of the main halyard instead of a knot (hopefully visible on the photo) to minimise the lenght of rope between the the top sheave and the top eye. Also better alingment, IF you use the bead on the right side. You will see!

My mainhalyard is the 6 mm rope that came with the boat, after 10 years of use it is still OK but now 7 mm.
The photo shows the top of the sail when reefed. Hope this helps.
BR
Peter

[PeterDT]

On second thought, skip the PTFE spray!
Wikipedia:
PTFE is one of the best-known and widely applied PFAS commonly described as persistent organic pollutants or "forever chemicals".

[Graham W]

If you can't use PTFE spray for environmental reasons, would this stuff be any good? https://www.getools.co.uk/product/ambersil-silicone-food-grade/.  I use it on my trailer rollers.

[Jane Reed]

I have a new Bre ,I am reliably informed by a local rigger  the main halyard is 6mm . They suggest changing to 8mm next season to ease hoisting all the fittings would take 8mm.

[PeterDT]

Hi,
If you use a thicker halyard, you will get more friction in the sheaves. Making hoisting harder! And 8 mm is still a thin line to pull with your hand. If you use a cunningham line (strongly recommended), you do not need to hoist the main superthight!
BR
Peter

[globetrot]

I also had issues hoisting the main halyard and getting enough tension in the luff. There are three things I did to assist with this, aside from ensuring all of my control lines were eased when raising:

• Replaced the main halyard with 8mm dyneema. This helped to reduce stretch and improved the luff tension.
• Cleaned and lubricated with sail track with McLube SailKote.
• Attached a dyneem loop with a low-friction ring to the mast step using a shackle [see picture].

The dyneema loop helped to ensure that when the sail is raised, the halyard is pulled down (not at an angle) close to the mast ensuring the line enters the cheek block at the top of the mast at the ideal angle. For reference, the blue line is my main halyard. I always hoist the main halyard from behind the low-friction ring, then tie off the halyard on the nylon cleat. The dyneema loop with the ring prevents me from using the nylon cleat on the mast as a block when raising the sail.