Banish BR wet locker misery

Anthony Huggett · 27 Jul 2011, 13:19

Andrew,
Those sealable hatches look good, and I'd be very interested to find out more. (I take it you also close the holes at the bottom?). I'm hoping to start on the floor subassembly this weekend, so a long way to go yet before I need them. Are they bigger or smaller than the standard hole in the locker top panel?

Anthony

Anthony Huggett · 28 Jul 2011, 13:22

It looks from the photos of a BR20 on Andrew's website as though I've missed something.

The lockers on a BR17 only extend down to the floor, i.e. above the ballast tank, so can be made self-draining into the cockpit. It seems that the BR20 lockers extend to the bottom of the hull, with the water tank inboard. That would make it hard to get the water out and I now understand why it causes such misery. My apologies for a non-helpful suggestion to the BR20 owners out there.

Andrew Denman · 02 Aug 2011, 19:51

Hi Anthony,

The hatches we are using come from Armstrong Nautical in the US. Matt can probably provide if you ask him.

They are a smaller cutout (hatch size 10" x 20") than the current lids but are 100% watertight and a lot less work to fit than the standard lid. The scupper hole in the bottom of the locker is closed off and a seat drain is plumbed in. See the picture of the boat below at undercoat stage to see what I mean.

With the BR20 in timber, there is a shelf in the bottom of the locker that is at cockpit sole height and a drain scupper that drains into the cockpit. A 200mm access port in the locker allows you to get below the sole height shelf. See the second picture below.

We have just about finished a BR20 with a change to the lockers to the Armstrong product. That's the beauty of the timber boats - they are much easier to change than the GRP versions. Send me an email and I can discuss the hatches and fitting if you want to go that way.

regards,

Andrew

Anthony Huggett · 03 Aug 2011, 09:18

Andrew,
Thanks again for a very clear explanation. Thought it was odd to have a space that was asking to be filled with water. (Actually it still is. Has anyone considered pumpable water ballast on the outboard tanks?)

The trouble is that I've already cut out for the bigger lids. That said, since we may want to camp on her, dry lockers for carrying sleeping bags and so on would be very attractive. I've got some way to go before I get to the tank lids, so I can defer the decision for now.

The original thread was on GRP BR20s, which have a very different lid design. But maybe the lockers can be sealed shut and the hatches put through the lids?

Anthony

Simon Knight · 06 Aug 2011, 18:13

A question about the seals: Have I understood correctly the ETS58 is used on the inboard (lower) edges of the locker and the ETS59 on the outboard upper edge?

Simon Knight · 08 Aug 2011, 11:29

Hi Graham,

In your original post you write "For reasons that I do not understand, I found that most water was entering the lockers from the two lower corners of the rim (backwash?)" I was wondering how you tested this ( CCTV inside the closed locker while throwing buckets of water at the lid?)

Most of the water that gets into my locker gets in through the hole I had drilled for the fuel hose - Doh!

best wishes

Simon

Simon Knight · 09 Aug 2011, 10:32

I decided that I should try and answer my own question so yesterday I conducted some experiments. Before I describe the experiment and the results I think that I should reiterate that I have not suffered from a great deal of water getting into my boats lockers but have to admit that the worst conditions I have sailed in are a Force 5 and short Solent chop. My experience has been that the BayRaider is a very dry boat especially when sailed upright.

My experiments were conducted with the boat on her trailer and she was level. I was interested in Grahams washback and having looked at the locker wondered if the locker lid was dividing the water flow as it flowed down the end grooves and directing some of the water along the inboard lower edge and into the locker.

I paced a video camera and some lights inside the locker and used a large bucket of water as my simulated wave. I threw the water down and along the locker lid with my aim point being the middle of the lid.

The video shows that the lowest corners of the closed lid impede the water while it is draining away. Some of the water attempts to drain down the inside edge of the ends of the lid and then meets the lower edge of the lid and is forced around the corner. At this point the lip of the locker is only approx 2c.m. high and the water spurts into the locker over the lip. Mean while a pool of water is formed on top of the lid. This water quickly fills the drain reservoir and then shoots under the lid into the locker.

I conducted a second test with the locked wedged open a c.m. or so. This allowed a greater flow rate down the side grooves and reduced the amount of water entering the locker from either the lower corner or the top edge.

Water gets into the locker when it is present in quantities that allow it to flow over the upper and lower lips. The use of seals will restrict how much water gets in but I would recommend that lower edges of the locker lid should be shaped to allow water to escape at a greater rate. I also think that the lower lip of the locker should be raised in the lower corners to prevent any water that does get around the corner from entering the locker.

For the heavy weather sailors some additional form of plumbing to help carry the water away could be employed. Either from the top reservoir down through the locker and out through a skin fitting or scuppers running from the locker top through the air tank to the sea.

The seals discussed in this thread will help but if the flow of the draining water is not improved then the water may still find its way in. Also a completely sealed locker will make it difficult to right the boat in the very unlikely event of a capsize.

At the end of the day how far do you want to go, or how many buckets of water per minute to you want to drain away?

Note: The greater the angle of heel the slower the water will flow away.

The locker cam video may be viewed here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utx5lk57TU8

best wishes
Simon

Julian Swindell · 09 Aug 2011, 13:21

That has got to be the most gripping video I have ever watched.

Simon Knight · 09 Aug 2011, 14:34

You won't be wanting to watch the sequel then?!!

Simon

Graham W · 10 Aug 2011, 09:29

Quote from: Simon Knight on 06 Aug 2011, 18:13
A question about the seals: Have I understood correctly the ETS58 is used on the inboard (lower) edges of the locker and the ETS59 on the outboard upper edge?

Simon

Correct!

I like the video - I just used a lot of trial and error and a high pressure hose but you have definitely confirmed that the water is coming in where you probably would not expect it

Simon Knight · 10 Aug 2011, 10:20

Thanks for the confirmation - I shall be placing my order for the seals today.

Graham W · 28 Aug 2011, 08:28

Well, it is nearly time to return home from the Ionian. I have done my best (in the interests of science) to ship blue water over the bows and gunnels (in up to F6 apparent) but only succeeded in generating huge amounts of spray. I have been much too idle to empty the boat of holiday detritus and practice a capsize. I can still report that no water has entered the lockers so far. Even if water was to enter under more extreme circumstances, I am happy with the seals and recommend them to all GRP BR owners.

Colin Morley · 28 Aug 2011, 10:18

I have been following this discussion with interest. Although I have not had a problem with water in the lockers we are planning some more sea sailing - tomorrow, and I certainly do not want a problem with water in the lockers. So I have fitted the seals.
I have one or two more facts for those still interested in fitting these seals. The lower seal on front of the locker uses ETS58 and each one is 165 cm long. The top back seal uses ETS59 and is 140 cm long.
Putting on the ETS58 was reasonably simple - I could push it on and it stayed in place but hammering with a rubber mallet pushed it on more. The TES59 on the back upper part was very difficult to push on. It kept falling off. I then found that I could get it on well if I worked inch by inch pushed it in place and then hammered it quite hard with a rubber mallet. It was than surprising how far it went on and stayed very firmly.
These seals certainly don't need gluing they grip so well.
I cut then with strong kitchen scissors and then a wire cutter.
So let us hope they keep the water out in the waves and wind tomorrow!

Clem Freeman · 28 Aug 2011, 11:33

I've fitted this type of seal on cars and found the best way to get them on is to bend them back along there length as you go, this has the effect of opening the gap. Its then easier to push on to start with. Still use a mallet after to get it pushed right home.

Guy Rossey · 28 Aug 2011, 21:29

RE:"... I also think that the lower lip of the locker should be raised in the lower corners to prevent any water that does get around the corner from entering the locker...".

Hi Simon, thank you for sharing with us the results of your convincing experiment.
Two questions:
- you suggest that the lower lip of the locker should be raised in the lower corners to prevent any water. On the lower lip on the existing boats would you not rather use the second higher seal (on the pictures sent earlier) to achieve this?
- do you intend to or did you modify the shape of the lid since then? I intended to do it when I found your post.

Thank you.
Guy

Catchando Bay , BR #48