Do we really need mizzens...

[Peter Cockerton]

Interesting to see the ideas for rotating the mast to furl the mizzen completely and i'm going to try and implement on my bayraider. I was pondering how to overcome the problem of reefing the mizzen with the current boom and snotter arrangement.

Idea one would be fix rope loops perhaps two using bullseyes on the existing wood boom, the  outhall could be guided through the relevant loop to pull the clew tight depending on amount of reef. To reduce messing about feeding the sheet through the loop a snap shackle or similar could be used.

Idea 2 would be to change the wooden boom for something telscopic so the sheet arrangements and snotter stay as is, thinking out aloud the tiller extender type would be good where you just twist, adjust and lock to the desired length. This would provide a very flexible reefing arrangement.

Idea 3 perhaps a boom which could be adjusted using the spring pin and hole arrangement you see on tent poles.

I will think about this more but i thought it worth floating the idea for comment.

Peter

[Julian Swindell]

I have doubts that reefing the mizzen on a Bayboat is really worth the candle. If you look at the sail plan overall, it is such a small sail that reducing it by say 50% would barely be noticeable compared to everything else that is throwing the boat around when the wind is strong.  I think if you feel that the mizzen is overpowering the stern of the boat, you just want it off. It may be different on the Cardigan Bay Lugger as I think the mizzen is much larger in proportion, so does have a serious influence on balance. (See photos below)

What I have been interested in is a way of quickly dousing the mizzen completely, which a roller might do, but I am more interested in the idea of brailing lines to just pull it tight into the mast. The idea would be to unship the sprit, haul in and cleat the brail and the sail area is gone. Has anyone tried this? I have seen it done on loose footed mizzens on Drascombes, but not on a sprit boomed mizzen. The only modification needed would be a cringle on the luff of the sail for the line to go through, plus a cleat or hook on the mast.

[Simon Knight]

How about the late Hans Vandersmissen description of  using the mizen to sail backwards between finger pontoons or while cooking a meal down below?

best wishes

Simon

[Simon Knight]

What would happen if the spar was lifted back to the mast, scandalising the sail (I think)?

[Martyn Miles]

Thanks Tony,

Sorry I think in my enthusiasm I got reefing and furling mixed up, I was really talking about furling as my partner was having trouble furling the mizzen while I took care of the main. I will have to give some thought to reefing although as Julian says it is probably not worth it, will let you know if I come up with a solution. Finding a position for the snotter might be the crux as Peter says.

Martyn

[Tony]

What would happen if the spar was lifted back to the mast, scandalising the sail (I think)?

Hi, Simon.

It could work on a  small mizzen and does work, on a huge scale, with Thames barges - who do it all the time.  However,  I've tried this on "Four Sisters" and you end up, at best, with a nasty flappy bit waving about in the breeze and, at worse, the damn thing balloons out, throwing the boat around and threatening to rip itself to bits. Also, to make the boom safe I have to stand up to the mizzen mast and use both hands. Not good in the usual circumstances for wanting  the mizzen  away in a hurry !  With roller furling you just release the snotter and yank the furling line. Job done!
As far as roller reefing goes Julian is probably right for the BR etc.  Not worth the fuss. For the CBL and other "Storm" based boats it could well prove a benefit (assuming a decent sail shape can be kept) but implementing it with a sprit boom, however you rig it, is not easy!  I've even tried a reefing claw (the sort of thing they used to have on roller reefed mainsails in the 60's) but the weight of it (a home-made test piece made from plastic pipe, split lengthways) just pulled the boom down the mast, ruining the sail shape.  Glad I didn't invest in an expensive bronze one. It would have needed a sky hook !
The simplest answer is to lose the boom altogether and sheet the mizzen to a dirty great long bumkin.  See below, as implemented by Nigel Irens.  No need for mizzen reefing on this boat.

NB 
"Romilly" is a beautiful boat and sails like a witch but I don't think you'd want to trail it any distance with a 'reasonably priced car'.  Stick with the water ballast, guys !
Hmmm.   I wonder what a 23 foot BayRaider Expedition would look like?  It would only take a small Lottery Funding grant to find out......

[Simon Knight]

Tony,

Ah!!!! Someone else who has dreamed of a Romilly; my wife even said I could have one :-) but then I mentioned the truck that would be required to tow her etc etc.

Its such a long time since I sailed my Bay Raider that I can't remember how I furl the mizen, I think that I just rotate the mast by hand but I shall investigate fitting some form of furling line. 

I take your point about the sail ballooning if the boom is lifted to the mast.

best wishes

Simon

[Colin Morley]

Thanks Tony,

Sorry I think in my enthusiasm I got reefing and furling mixed up, I was really talking about furling as my partner was having trouble furling the mizzen while I took care of the main. I will have to give some thought to reefing although as Julian says it is probably not worth it, will let you know if I come up with a solution. Finding a position for the snotter might be the crux as Peter says.

Martyn

I thought furling the mizzen was one of the easy bits. I stand in front of the mizzen with a foot either side of the well and unhitch the sheets, lift the mizzen pole vertically with the loose end upwards next to the mast and then wrap it around the mast tightly holding the mizzen boom upright until it is all tightly furled. I then put on two bungy ties. One near the top of the mizzen boom and one at the bottom. It is all neat and tidy. I often lower the main so the gaff is horizontal and use the top tie on the mizzen to also secure the gaff to the mizzen while I furl the main.

[Graham W]

This thread has been comatose for several years but I think that it's worth reviving.  Mainly because Wooderz of Hyde Sails, who was at the Mylor raid earlier in the week, was reported to have said that the mizzen really doesn't help to drive the boat to windward on a beat.  In fact, it produces drag and would be better off furled, allegedly. I think he was referring specifically to the BayRaider.

Reading back through the posts of yesteryear, there seems to be general agreement that mizzens have all sorts of useful attributes.  For me recently, sailing under just jib and mizzen around most of Mull (and mostly downwind) was a revelation - a comfortable and fairly severe form of reefing.  There's also its use for weathercocking when raising and lowering the mainsail and heaving to; as an aircraft-style rudder for moving on to the opposite tack; to provide weather helm; to divide up the overall sail area into smaller and more easily handled pieces; for sailing backwards in tight spots; and last but not necessarily least, for good looks and admiring glances.

Yet if what Wooderz is reported to have said is correct, I did not see a single Swallow beating to windward with a furled mizzen this week.  Admittedly the winds were fairly fickle and perhaps to test the proposition, it needs clean winds on long beats out at sea, with and without the mizzen.  Unless you've put in one of the clever furling mechanisms described above, it would have been too much of a faff when racing to have been furling and unfurling the mizzen for what might be only a tiny theoretical advantage on short beats in a narrow estuary like the Fal.

What do the offshore cruising types think?  Furl the mizzen on long beats for better progress to windward or leave well alone?  Is there any evidence one way or the other?  Julian is clear that furling helps the BC20 to windward but what about BayRaiders?

[jonno]

Halfway between the Helford River and the Fal estuary yesterday, we had a little gear failure. I could have patched things up but furled the mizzen instead. We made good progress upwind  to Mylor but with some lee helm.

I don't know whether we went faster or slower.

John

[Peter Taylor]

I think it was in conversation with me that Wooderz made the comment about mizzens not helping when going upwind. At the time we were watching two of the fleet tacking upwind and it was clear that their mizzens were not setting well and did not look to be contributing. I later mentioned Wooderz's comment to Matt and he pointed out that the furled mizzen on its mast would itself create a lot of drag and, if one really wanted to benefit from furling the mizzen, then one should also dismount and stow the mizzen mast.

As suggested by Julian Swindell, I quite often sail up wind with the mizzen furled. However my feeling is that, while the mizzen does produce some drive (if sheeted hard),  in strongish winds (particularly with the main reefed)  the BC20 has more weather helm than I like. Furling the mizzen (and lifting the centreboard a little) makes the boat better balanced. That's why I do it.

But I would not be without the ability to use the mizzen. At the Raid's last evening meal, Nick mentioned recently seeing me on the Beaulieu River. Winds that day were upper force 5, gusting 6. Seatern ran back to Calshot and then reached up Southampton Water under jib and mizzen at between 5 and 6 knots (admittedly with help from the flood tide). In strong winds the BC20 is very comfortable under jib and mizzen including when beating upwind. I've sailed Seatern that way in upper force 6, gusting 7, and had I been using a double reefed main I'd have been spilling wind and/or pinching up all the time.

To make furling the mizzen quicker, Seatern has a simple furling drum (photo attached). Details of making it  are on my blog at http://www.seatern.org.uk/SeaternDiaries/diary_2015_june.php - look at the 7th June entry.

Peter

[BobT]

This has been really useful reading as I have been trying to get the hang of sailing with a mizzen. For the most part I find it helpful for all the reasons mentioned previously.  The one concern I had was when sailing close hauled I have found that to get the mizzen to fill one has to over sheet it and in "a good breeze" this can lead to significant weather helm.  It appears that others find this to be the case as well.
Initially I thought the issue with the mizzen was that I could not flatten the sail because of the outhaul rope feeding through a hole in the boom meaning there was too much friction in "a good breeze" to get enough tension on it.  However the other day I had a good look at the mizzen sail set up and it appears the sail has a lot of camber and no amount of tensioning on out haul or down haul will take out. I am wondering if this is a contributing factor to the mizzen flapping when sailing close hauled.
Regards,
Bob

[Peter Taylor]

...no amount of tensioning on out haul or down haul will take out. I am wondering if this is a contributing factor to the mizzen flapping when sailing close hauled.

one other thing to check is that the rope eye ("snotter"?) that holds the inboard end of the mizzen boom ("sprit"?) to the mast is as high up as it can go - i.e. just under the bottom of the mizzen tube ("appropriate nautical term"?) which goes over the mast. That, together with the tension in the mizzen luff, keeps the sail relatively flat.
Peter

[Llafurio]

The mizzen on the BRs and BRes can indeed attract criticism for being inefficient during tacking up. It crinkles and flaps. The only reason is the mechanically inefficient SwB standard mizzen sheeting arrangement. There is a  solution long known.:

[SteveWD]

For what its worth, our BC26 sails quite well on jib alone in a blow on all points of sail. Indeed, seeing a jib only upwind in a blow is not uncommon for small cruisers in our area.

I wouldn't short tack between rows of moored boats on jib alone, though, as a boat length or two is required to get on course and up to speed and get the keel providing lift after a tack. Every other situation is fine with near hull speed achieved in about 20-22kn AWS upwind and a moderate chop. When required the sail can be furled at short notice.

As an earlier contributor said, when a cruiser heels it generally wants to round up (that's one way of steering a dinghy without a rudder) so with jib only the CoE is further forward and counteracts this and the helm feels near normal once up to speed.

In practice, wind speed is not a problem - it's the sea-state that comes with it.