Do we really need mizzens...

[Julian Swindell]

I'll probably get shot down in flames for suggesting this, but do we really get any advantage from our mizzen sails? I spent yesterday charging in and out of Poole Harbour on my BayCruiser. When I left my last anchorage, I had decided to stow the mizzen there so that I would have less to do on the mooring. Sailing back with just the main and jib was not just as fast, but dare I say it, even faster and lighter on the helm. She also steered herself on a run beautifully, which she won't do on a run witht he mizzen up. What are teh arguments for me not just leaving the mizzen off? I know the bigger BayCruisers don't have them in the first place.

[Clem Freeman]

To be honest I haven't a clue having only really sailed a wayfairer. It has been suggested to me to not bother with the mizzen for my maiden voyage as it can cause problems tacking.

[Anthony Huggett]

The mizzen is there to make sure that the centre of effort of the sails stays abaft the centre of lateral resistance of the boat (which is more or less where the centreboard is), depending on trim.
This gives the boat "weather helm", a tendency to turn into the wind. A boat should have a small amount of weather helm.

If the centre of effort is too far forward, as it could be with no mizzen, then in a gust, rather than tending to turn into the wind and spilling it from the sails, the boat will turn away from the wind, power up and capsize. This condition is called "lee helm" and is generally considered a very bad thing.

The Wayfarer rig was designed to put the centre of effort in the right place for that boat - considering the position of the single mast, foils, and the length of the boom (which as I recall comes back to the transom, more or less). Matt's 2-masted "kawl" rig is also designed to put the COE in the right place, with or without the mainsail.  Without a mizzen I think you risk making the boat unmanageable when going to windward.

I've only sailed one boat with a mizzen - Matt's BR17. Tacking was a doddle - the mizzen looks after itself, as does the jib.

[Julian Swindell]

Just to stoke the idea further, on a few occasions where I have known that I am going to be beating for a long distance I have stowed the mizzen and just done it with jib and main. The mizzen does look after itself, but without it I can actually point closer to the wind, which speeds things up and reduces the number of tacks.

The other odd thing I do is when I am sailing straight down wind for a significant time, I furl the jib and just concentrate on keeping the main and mizzen filled. It sounds daft, but if I try to keep the jib filled, or even goose winged, I actually loose power from the main because the poor thing feels neglected. A spinnaker would be an obvious answer, but I don't have one and don't fancy using one single handed. I have a standard non-self tacking jib. I think with the self tacker it would be much easier to goose wing.

Where I do use the mizzen is tacking in light winds, where over sheeting the mizzen can help me through the eye of the wind. And it helps point the boat upwind when reefing, raising sail etc. plus it looks very pretty. I am not planning to get rid of it any time soon.

[Brian Robertson]

Julian,

Interesting that you query the requirement for a mizzen, I have been asking myself the same question - must be a BayCruiser20 thing 

My own thoughts are:

++Pros++
+ Great in very heavy weather when you can sail with just jib and mizzen - I see this as a major safety feature.
+ Good, sheeted hard in, for keeping head to wind when raising lowering mainsail.
+ Useful in light airs, especially when close hauled, when you want every square inch of canvas.

--Cons--
- A hindrance in strong winds where it can lead to excessive weather helm.
- A nuisance when doing rapid, close quarters manoeuvring (e.g in a busy harbour area) - just gets in the way.

[Jonathan Stuart]

I'll probably get shot down in flames for suggesting this, but do we really get any advantage from our mizzen sails?

Heresy! I hear they still burn people at the stake in Gwbert for talk like that! 

[Clem Freeman]

Well I think its mizzen up for me.

[Julian Swindell]

I knew someone would want to throw me to the consuming flames for such a suggestion.

[Jonathan Stuart]

Sorry, Julian, I just had to make that comment!

My understanding has always been what Brian and Anthony described so it's interesting you can point higher without the mizzen. My Dabber definitely pointed higher with the mizzen and small mizzen adjustments made a noticeable difference to how it sailed. I need more time on the water with the BRe to say how the mizzen effects that.

[Anthony Huggett]

All that I said about CLR and COE is a simplification. There is another factor which is the turning effect (into the wind) of the heeled hull once it is moving forward. All boats in my experience, from Laser to Feeling 326, do this. I suspect this may be the reason Brian is finding excessive weather helm in strong winds, because there's no reason for the COE or CLR to have moved.

Dinghies are meant to be sailed flat. Heeling over 10 or 20 degrees to leeward looks cool and feels comfy, but is usually slower in anything but the lightest of winds. One of the reasons is that you have to apply more rudder to counteract the turning effect of heeling the boat.

(The only time one might deliberately heel to leeward is in a very light drifter - it encourages the sails to stay in the right shape, keeps the boom on the right side of the boat, and reduces the wetted area, which is the main source of drag at low speeds.)

In very strong winds it may be possible to go to windward under jib alone. However, you do have to bear away a lot to get the boat moving when you tack, and you probably have to keep the boat heeled away from the wind, so that the heeled hull cancels any lee helm.

Sadly I'll be another year or before I can try this out for myself. Happy sailing, with or without a mizzen.!

[Colin Morley]

I love it. This is what the this site is all about. As a researcher I have spent my life questioning the dogma.

This is my view for what it is worth.
1) The mizzen is very good for tacking. Use it like the rudder on the tail of an plane, by pulling it to windward and you can spin round. Very useful when tacking up a river like the Broads.
2) when trimmed properly it is very good for balancing the force of the sails.
3) when it is blowing a bit and the wife is on board we often sail with the jib and mizzen. It is very stable but still whizzes along.
4) A problem with the BR is that it is very shallow footed so the bows easily blow off to windward. The mizzen properly trimmed counts this a bit.
4) It makes the boat look pretty and gets admiring glances.

Having said all that I have never tried sailing without it. I will now try and research the project!

[Julian Swindell]

I had a Drascombe Dabber for many years, and she really did need her mizzen to sail well. But I think that was more due to the main sail being a loose footed lug rather than a boomed Bermudan/Gunter. I read that even Ian Oughtred thinks his Caledonian yawl sails better as a sloop rig, and he offers such a rig as an option.

I don't know the theory, but many designers say that the sloop/cutter is the most efficient rig for beating to windward. What I think is happening on my own boat is that when the jib and main are trimmed for best shape on a beat, the main back-winds the mizzen slightly, making it flutter. I cure this by over-sheeting the mizzen, but I suspect that actually increases the drag of the mizzen to the extent that it cancels out any additional drive the little sail produces. I might beat best by leaving the mizzen fluttering, but I hate fluttering sails, so I eventually dowse it altogether, and that is how I found that I can actually sail closer to the wind without it.

I have doubts too, dare I say, about the ultimate safety of the jib/mizzen strong wind rig, which is often extolled. I have used it many times and it works, but only really if the wind is in a cooperative direction. If you have to beat against the wind, the two little sails can't point you close enough or get you through any waves. Next time I am in that situation, I am planning to try a double reefed main with both jib and mizzen furled. That may lean more, but I think the improvement in control might be worth it. (If you don't hear any more from me it probably means I was wrong...)

[Michael Rogers]

I've never sailed with a mizzen, so am not really qualified to comment. With reference to CLR and COE, Anthony, is it not also the case that the usual calculations, diagrams etc refer to keel boats, which are usually larger and in which the CLR doesn't move much? - whereas in a centreboard boat, especially one as small as a dinghy (where do dinghies end, sizewise?), the extent to which the board is down, and the distribution of the weight of crew, can move the CLR fore or aft appreciably.

All this water ballast stuff you BR and BC guys go in for is another variable in this respect, surely.

I have not-very-close relatives-by-marriage (with whom we haven't been in touch for a while) who used to race Fireballs quite fanatically, and then got a holiday pad near Salcombe and switched to Salcombe Yawls. These are are about 18ft, traditional clinker (there is a GRP variant called a Devon Yawl, I believe), and they have a pocket handkerchief mizzen perched on the transom - almost comically small, actually. I believe there are very strictly applied class rules to the effect that the mizzen must always be set when racing. It would be interesting to get their views on mizzens! I'll see what I can do.

Michael

[Anthony Huggett]

The theory and diagrams apply to all sailing boats, but with a dinghy or dayboat there is more that can be done to move the CLR. The theory is taught on RYA courses for both dinghies and yachts.

On most dinghies the CLR is as far forward as possible with the CB fully down and the boat trimmed down by the bow. This also moves the COE forward since the top of the masts rotate forward as the boat is trimmed down by the bow. The pointy end digs in to the water more than the flat end. But the Storm is pointy at both ends so it may be that trim doesn't have much effect.

Raising the CB a little doesn't decrease the area all that much but it does swing the centre of the board back by 6 inches or so.  That may be a convenient cure for excessive weather helm, but beware any loss of pointing ability.

You can also move the COE in your sails forward by tightening the luff (downhaul, Cunningham) and the outhaul. Not doing this in strong winds can allow the position of the curved part of the canvas to move away from the mast.

[Tony]

"Mizzens,  eh?  Not worth the sticks and string!"   

Someone of an earlier generation said this about the big racing yawls on the Med circuit, I think . I don't agree.  Perhaps for out-and-out speed he was right but there are other considerations,  most of which have been mentioned here - or elsewhere on this Forum.
I have found a remarkable difference in the handling of two Lug and Mizzen boats, my CBL  "Four Sisters"  and a recent acquisition, my Deben Lugger Hybrid  "Wabi" .  No doubt the BR20,  Storm 17,  Bj 17 and others have their own quirks. Differences of CLR and CE apart the main influence  seems to be to do with the relative size of the mizzen and the mainsail. "Wabi" with a relatively small mizzen, sails happily to windward under jib and mizzen and is equally comfortable with just the main (balanced Lug) sail. With main and mizzen in, say, F5  there is an increasing amount of weather helm.
"Four Sisters"  suffers from this, too, but is less than happy under main alone. With the windage on the cabin and only the relatively large mizzen set  she will actually creep up to a mooring  the right conditions, though.  Looks a bit weird, I'm told, but it works.  The larger mizzen allows a few other tricks, too. Sailing backwards with just the mizzen set and the sprit boom pulled back over the cockpit, 180 deg to its normal place, for example(useful in confined spaces)  and best of all, giving the ability to yank in the mizzen tight, let the mainsheet go and sit dead head to wind taking whatever the sea throws at her - like a duck.   "Wabi" despite having no cabin windage to worry about, won't do this. The "Tail fin" effect  from the smaller mizzen isn't enough to overcome the drag of that dirty great mainsail flogging about. She is happier, and quieter,  moving slowly forward with a bit of wind in her mainsail, taking the seas at an angle. Drop the main and you can do the duck thing more successfully. Possibly the underwater profile and massive "barn door" rudder come into play, too.   Both boats work better in most conditions with the mizzen but my experience  agrees  with  Julian's where running down wind is concerned.  In anything around F4 and above you have to watch a big mizzen like a hawk to avoid a nasty, skidding broach. I've modified " Four Sisters"  with a species of roller furling gear ( a bit of rope wound round the mizzen mast and a low friction pad at the masts foot) so that I can get rid of it as quickly as possible when required, without taking my eye off the mainsail and following seas.
The main thing is to get to know what your boat (and you) can do with various combinations of sail so that you can have the best experience on the water, whatever the conditions.