What Boat Next?

[Johan Ellingsen]

@Claus,

The idea is to incorporate the centreboard case into the bunk-front on one side.There are obvious trade-offs,maybe Matt´s computer can quantify?

@Tony,

On the SB website CBL construction photos,the keel-cases seem to show a toe-in.When teaching small kids to ski downhill,this is the brake/stop position!Can you comment please?

[Craic]

... there is an over abundance of conventional boats on the market both new and used.

Gerald,
I agree. I too do not see any big market for a new boat that is really another 'conventional'. This better be novel and uncompromising in looks, simplicity, toughness and low price. Dare to be very different.

I myself would burn for a centre cockpit boat like you proposed.

[Alistair McVean]

I thought I would add my list of desirable characteristics for the new Swallow (Expedition) Boat. Only the first should have priority, otherwise in random order:-

The boat should look beautiful
Forward cabin only, room to sit upright, enough room for no more than 1-2 berths. Access through Lewmar type hatch, not a sliding hatch.
Self righting
Draining cockpit
Robust & simple
Built to a budget but can be added to by owner
Outboard in well
Easy reefing
Sheds water coming over the bows
Probably based on BR hull
Sail to windward efficiently, probably with a centreboard system
Can be beached for picnics
Storage in cockpit lockers
Minimal weight to mast & spars
I enjoyed Tonys comments on wind strength vs who enjoys going out on the water. All too true. So this boat should be as safe as possible in a blow. It has to, within reason, get you home, so water ballast is desirable

[Craic]

I thought I would add my list of desirable characteristics for the new Swallow (Expedition) Boat. Only the first should have priority, otherwise in random order:-

The boat should look beautiful
Forward cabin only, room to sit upright, enough room for no more than 1-2 berths. Access through Lewmar type hatch, not a sliding hatch.
Self righting
Draining cockpit
Robust & simple
Built to a budget but can be added to by owner
Outboard in well
Easy reefing
Sheds water coming over the bows
Probably based on BR hull
Sail to windward efficiently, probably with a centreboard system
Can be beached for picnics
Storage in cockpit lockers
Minimal weight to mast & spars
I enjoyed Tonys comments on wind strength vs who enjoys going out on the water. All too true. So this boat should be as safe as possible in a blow. It has to, within reason, get you home, so water ballast is desirable

Alistair,
THAT boat is there already, it's called 'BayCruiser 20', you can order it today. It's excellent, but with all it's features it's not a basic budget boat. We were speaking about what boat should come NEXT. Certainly not another BayCruiser 20, that would not make any commercial sense.

[Tony]

On the SB website CBL construction photos,the keel-cases seem to show a toe-in.When teaching small kids to ski downhill,this is the brake/stop position!Can you comment please?

Hi, Johan.
The toe-in you describe from the build photos is an optical illusion, I think.   Matt will correct me if Im wrong.  Certainly, I am not aware of any snow plough effect  slowing me up when sailing with both boards down!

Incidentally,  two boards have a greater wetted surface than one and so it would be reasonable to predict that the CBL would sail slightly faster with the weather board raised. In practice I find that whatever difference there is, it is not large enough to register on the speed readout on my GPS . (Garmin 76)
I habitually sail with both boards down on all points of sailing mainly because my crew objects to moving towels, bottles of suncream, etc when she has "just got comfortable". (Whacha gonna do?)

[Alistair McVean]

Claus,

The proportions I had in mind for the boat are different from the BC20. Much more like The Highlander 18, but built around the innovations incorporated in the BR20.

[Andy Stobbart]

Re the Expedition version of the Baycruiser concept:

I have always been intrigued by Shackleton's achievements in sailing the James Caird (I believe that was the name) an approx 20' openboat across the southern Ocean from Antarctica to South Georgia. This story is truly a testament to how seaworthy an openboat can/could be...  though few people these days would wish to emulate every aspect of this journey.  With this example as an inspiration I have frequently (most days!)day-dreamed of sailing over the horizon in an open micro cruiser. Surely with modern materials, designs and construction techniques together with modern "micro-" and safety technology e.g. GPS/Chartplotters; LED lighting; Micro-cookers; VHF & EPIRBS; breathable fabrics; etc etc it ought to be possible to accomplish similar passages in comparative safety.

It would seem to me that the simplest way to make an open boat into a closed boat for truly inclement weather is not necessarily to fix a cabin onto her: how about the option of removable decking (stored in the cockpit lockers) to enclose the open cockpit and thus shed green water coming over her> Add a couple of opening hatches for the helsman and crew beside the helm which can be made weatherproof with a canoe-style sprayskirt.  This adaptation alone, if Shackleton's example is anything to go by, would probably enable the BayRaider to cross oceans.  Nobody is suggesting that this would make for a comfortable passage but it would probably make passagemaking achievable for the hardy (should I say 'hardman') sailor.

If I was to consider crossing an ocean in such a boat I would want a rock-solid rig; the ability to manipulate the sails from the helming position and safely heave to for hours/days on end while holed up under the deck, and to be able to deploy a series drogue as a survival tactic (though I suspect this might end up being used quite frequently) - which would imply a strong point designed into the boat from which to deploy the drogue.

I would also want a powerful, precise, reliable, non-electronic self-steering mechanism.

Am I barmy to even to speculate in this way ?

[Julian Swindell]

Sitting in freezing green water with a spray skirt to stop me sinking doesn't really sound like my type of sailing! Each to their own though.
Regarding Shakleton, Bligh et al in their extraordinary open boat voyages. These were two of the most stunning voyages ever, but bear in mind, we extol these because they survived. There were an immensely greater number of deep ocean, open boat voyages started where the sailors were never heard of again. In a similar vein, lots of people ask me if I could sail across the English Channel in my boat. I answer that people have sailed across the English Channel in bath tubs, but that doesn't mean that they are suitable vessels for the journey. Don't base your choice on freak successes. Look at the dull, boring plodders that succeed so often we don't notice them. One of the most wildly succesful long distance small boats is the Corribee. Nothing exciting about it but it does the job time and time again. Maybe there is something we can glean from it? How about a BayRaider with ballast bilge keels which doesn't invert in the first place? Make them retractable for beaching/trailing? I'm not keen on all this self righting stuff. I don't want to invert in the first place!
http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=corribee&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=gxTpS6aIKMPgsAbtkNSWCA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CD8QsAQwAw

[Johan Ellingsen]

@Claus:

Aft cabins,on Norwegian Nordlandbåter.The one on the left at least is a replica,the ominously-named "Drauen" (Sea Zombie).When you see green water and sea-weed in your boat,it´s Drauen coming aboard to get you!

[Craic]

Thanks Johan.
Here some more recent designs.
These boats weigh next to nothing and are tough, tough, tough.

[Tony]

Hiya,  All.
My view, Julian,  is that with a lightweight boat like the BayRaider  you can easily tow it down the motorway to interesting places to sail, using ferries to cross the  nastier bits of sea.  This avoids the necessity of passage making – possibly exhausted by bad weather, at night, unable to leave the helm, etc. etc. you get the picture.  If you like that kind of challenge, fair enough, but I will be applauding from the sidelines.  (Not that the BR or BC could not take on the Channel in the right weather window. If a Redfox 200 can do it.......)
A BayRaider with ballast keels?  Im sure it would make an excellent sea boat -  but would it be any better than water ballast? It would be a darned sight harder to tow, launch and recover!  Mukti Mitchells Explorer    http://www.mitchellyachts.co.uk/explorer/  addresses the problem quite interestingly but the keel assembly adds £1,500 to the cost. That works out at about 10% of the total, more if you are building her yourself. ....and, of course, its extra weight to tow and extra mechanicals to go wrong!  I think I prefer the variable water ballast system.  Fill to sail, pump out to row.
Talking of rowing, Claus – I do think that ocean rowing boats can inform the design of an Expedition BayRaider. These things are designed to shrug off a knockdown and survive being rolled, qualities that would be very desirable in a small boat intended for challenging environments. Often, we hear of ocean going yachts, abandoned by their crews in a storm, being recovered more or less intact. Its the bits that stick out that are vulnerable.  Mast, rudder and centreboard principally, just the things that Frank Dye would get out of harms way when his Wayfarer was caught in a gale. ( Just think how much more comfortable Frank would have been if he could retire behind a nice Lewmar hatch, AIS transponder, VHF and i-Phone at the ready,  instead of crouching under a leaky  tarp hoping for the best!)
Below is a photo of the worst gale that Four Sisters and I have survived at sea together.  SSW Force 8 to 9, in the Channel  off  Dunkirk.  Even Supertankers  were taking it green over the bows and some had anchored to ride it out.  We were, of course, both on a Norfolk Lines ferry at the time... the evening meal aboard was particularly pleasant.....(Pity the poor sailors on a night like this!)

[Craic]

Фирма «Опто Лаб» - разработчик и производитель разнообразных модификаций оптических устройств любой сложности. Мы предлагаем полный цикл производства нужной для вас оптики, начиная с расчетов, проектирования, и заканчивая готовой продукцией. В процессе расчётов непременно принимаются во внимание все возможные факторы влияния на работу будущего прибора – и оптические, так и рабочие. Продукция изготавливается как единичными экземплярами, так и сериями, в соответствии с вашими требованиями.
У нас вы имеете возможность заказать оптические системы, приборы, узлы, полуволновая пластина различные модификации объективов – наши мастера производят широкий спектр оптической продукции, следуя техническому заданию заказчика. Обращаясь к нам, вам достаточно иметь свою идею о том, что вы желали бы получить, а мы претворим её в жизнь.
Вся продукция изготавливается «под ключ». Кроме того, мы производим прототипирование по существующим образцам, в целях дальнейшего воспроизводства, а также предоставляем такие услуги, как измерение, контроль, аттестация, паспортизация всевозможных оптических элементов. С подробной информацией об услугах можно ознакомиться на нашем сайте.

[Tony]

Hi, Claus.
With Pb (as rolls of lead flashing) at €6.30 per Kilo and Au at €25.00 per gram I know which I would use! Mind you, H2O for water ballast is still free – unless you use something like Evian, which in 500ml bottles cost more than milk and nearly as much as Best British Bitter Beer or Real Ale. (Which,for the benefit of any Americans reading this, is NOT drunk warm.... and  while on a subject dear to my heart, please do not confuse it with English Lager –  which unlike REAL lager, made only on the continent of Europe I believe - is only fit for using as ballast! )

To get back to the point...
Ive tried to reduce my level of ignorance about NACA profiles and discovered this
... http://www.boat-links.com/foilfaq.html   which isn't particularly glowing about the advantages of a foil section over a flat plate, indeed, it seems to contradict itself in parts. Have I missed something – again?

[Tony]

Sorry, Claus. I forgot to ask ..... What effect, if any, do you think such a keel arrangement as you suggest would have on ease of launch and recovery.

Ive seen strong men reduced to quivering wrecks trying to recover a bilge keeler, whereas even my granddaughter can recover Four Sisters single handed.
In the photo below she has help, its true, as it was a bit windy.....and before you ask, it was yours truly who backed the trailer in unnecessarily deep.

[Craic]

Hi Tony,
I take it you are not convinced.
But please be welcome to make a better proposal which adresses the two concerns Matt had in his contribution #83 (on page 5): >I have actually done some initial sketch work on a "Crawl in and die" cabin for a BR20 but you do hit some problems. The first is the centreboard, which is right in the way. One could put up with this, but it also restricts comfortable seating (with legs outstretched) unless you sit facing aft. Second to get comfortable seating you end up with a cabin that looks too high to my eye.<

So the challenge is: How to use a BR hull, to replace the centreboard, and get to a cabin with sitting headroom but without a too high cabin roof. And the two conditions to be met before the bracket are: Boat must be self-righting, and can be built and sold -profitably- for a budget price of GBP 15,000 incl. VAT. Have a go at a solution yourself!

Re the practicalities of a bilge keeler: I have one, my 18 foot Drascombe Driver, and  I do launching and recovery single handed on a shallow beach, and even with the water out. In fact, that bilgekeeler goes up and down the trailer like on tracks, because of the central keel running in the grooves of the trailer keel wheels.

The Driver has crudely profiled bilgekeels, and it only draws 1 foot 6 inches max., but I have -finally- achieved satisfactory upwind performance. How: Through more efficient sailtrim (booms), resulting in higher speed. True, NACA hydrofoils need speed through the water to perform, but with speed they really fly. Flat plates stay always flat, and that from calm to blow.

Bilgekeels work well, they do not necessarily complicate launching and recovery, they are robust and totally foolproof. No hinges, encasings or operating them is needed, and the cockpit is freed of all obstruction. They could be retrofitted to a BR hull without much structural ado, and I think they are the lowest cost alternative solution as well.