What Boat Next?

[Craic]

Software bug. Deleted, Claus

[Craic]

Tony,
>An expedition BayRaider for go-anywhere sailors.<
Good idea, I like it.

Gives the proposed rustic and inexpensive cabin boat a direction and purpose. Well done.

Keep the ideas coming.

Claus

[Craic]

Matt has probably got ideas about that. I think there are a number of factors. Building in GRP will be heavier. That could spoil one of the BayCruiser20s prime selling points, in that unballasted it is light enough to use an unbraked trailer and it is really easy to tow, launch and recover. I can confirm this as I have just launched singlehanded in about 200mm of water without any problems at all. I think cost savings could also come about if Matt stuck to one fixed design. Each ply/epoxy boat ends up being almost a one off. But again, that is one of the selling points of an epoxy/ply Swallowboat. You can order it with all sorts of variations. Maybe it is not a direct Drascombe competitor but is in a different market. The important thing is for that market to be big enough to keep the orders coming. I must say that I used to have a much loved Drascombe Dabber, but having had a Swallowboat I simply wouldn't think of a Drascombe again. The Dabber is the best Drascombe, but the new BayRaider 17 will improve on it in every way.

Julian,
speaking about what boat possibly NEXT, I take it you are not in favour of a cheap basic cabin boat. So what boat do YOU suggest as next?

[Ian Cowie]

I think Swallow Boats are making great strides in developing innovative boats which are going to develop small boat cruising. I did consider purchasing a Bat Cruiser but I cannot afford the new purchase price. As yet there are not the secondhand examples which are within my price budget. I might need to wait a few years for that to happen. I have just put a deposit on a 20 yr old secondhand Coaster which I am going to be able to afford.

A more basic cabin boat (which the Coaster is) would be an attractive SwallowBoat option. I am sure there is a market out there for an affordable mini cruiser with modern innovations which Matt and his team are becoming known for. The Bay Raider 17 is a welcome addition and as it is being marketed as a self build option.

Matt and Swallow Boats should keep up the good work and I regret I will not be able to support the brand at this time.

Ian Cowie

[Tony]

Hi, Ian

Dont you hate it when that happens!

"I did consider purchasing a Bat Cruiser..."

[Ian Cowie]

Tony,

My fat fingers,

A Bat Cruiser would make an impression at a Drascombe Rally.

Ian

[Julian Swindell]

I'm a bit out of sequence here. Actually been doing some work!

I think I was trying to make the point earlier that a cheap, basic version of the BayCruiser 20 is probably not achievable. One of it's big attractions is the light weight augmented by water ballast when you need it. Getting the light weight on a cabin boat involves quite a use of foam cored construction and other tricks, which are not cheap. If you just mould it in solid fibreglass, it is going to be much heavier, with a lot of that weight up in the cabin superstructure, where you don't want it. To counteract that, you will need more ballast, which makes the whole thing even heavier.

On the other tack of a simple camping version of the BayRaider with a diddy cabinette, I'm not convinced that there is a big enough market. I think there are a lot of people who want an open dayboat for family sailing, with the possibility of overnight camping under a tent, and the BayRaiders do that really well. There are also a lot who want a proper cabin where you can keep some creature comforts on board so you can just hop on board and go for a sail when you get the chance, and everything you need is in place. The BayCruiser does that. I don't think there are many in the middle who just want a sleeping bag sized cuddy on an otherwise open boat. But I may be wrong. I usually am.

Where the real frustration for many lies is in the almost complete lack of second hand SwallowBoats on the market. I'm afraid they are so good that once you've got one you won't give it up!

[Craic]

... I think I was trying to make the point earlier that a cheap, basic version of the BayCruiser 20 is probably not achievable. ...

I wouldn't be too concerned here about what seems technically possible or impossible. This is to sound out what kind of boat many people would like to see next from Swallowboats.
Up to Matt and Nick then to find a solution. They are creative enough to be able to find solutions where we ourselves see none.

BTW, in a cabin sailer, to achieve self-righting one would not necessarily have to have much ballast, because the buoyancy and geometry of a cabin roof in connection with an extra lightweight rig (unstayed carbon windsurfer masts) may achieve self righting without much extra ballast. 

Again, how about a basic and inexpensive expedition cabin sailer?

[Matt Newland]

Hello,
I am really interested in the idea of a BayRaider with a basic cabin. As many of you will know, the Baycruiser 20 started out like this, and we planned to use the BR20 GRP hull mould as a starting point.
In the end we decided that most people would prefer a pocket yacht, with a more usable cabin, and we ended up with a different hull, with more beam and more freeboard. The cost of the BC20 is more than we had initially hoped but it is difficult and expensive to make a boat of her size, as light as she is. Recent sales success with her has convinced me we made the right decision.
Is there a market for a basic cabin version of the BayRaider 20? We have had our fair share of market failures over the years and it is always difficult to try to predict demand for a new design. We have been lucky recently and always had a paying customer or 2, to help finance the cost of a new design and this always helps.
I have actually done some initial sketch work on a "Crawl in and die" cabin for a BR20 but you do hit some problems. The first is the centreboard, which is right in the way. One could put up with this, but it also restricts comfortable seating (with legs outstretched) unless you sit facing aft. Second to get comfortable seating you end up with a cabin that looks too high to my eye. Is sitting headroom inside important?
I think a case could be made that the watertight integrity of the space was of more importance and that with a good spray hood and cockpit tent, you could manage with less headroom in the cabin.

The sales success of boats like the Coaster leads me to think there is a market, but we are too busy over the next few months with several new designs, including the BayRaider 17, and a GRP version of the BayCruiser 23. We are also toying with the idea of invigorating our range of kits with a series of open canoes, with auxiliary sail and electric options.

Keep the thoughts coming; it is great to read your ideas and opinions.
Matt

[Craic]

Keep the thoughts coming; it is great to read your ideas and opinions.
Matt

So, with your blessing, we can phantasize a bit more.

Re an inexpensive basic boat, I think the time is right for it:

There is a new boat getting a lot of attention on the continent, a new 18' Varianta. Its a basic cabin sailer for a bargain price of under €uro 10,000.00 incl. VAT. Designed by the same people who did the Alinghi, and built by Hanse Yachts, so it's cheap AND good, which is always the best possible combination.
However it's a keel boat, so it's pretty useless for our kind, but anyway it's an attractive proposal for the market.

Re the centreboard issue, how about two sideboards in cases on the inside of the lockers? -There is this new 17' sail & oar boat design 'Wikinger' by Herbert Glas of Bavaria, which has two ballasted sideboards. Can be seen on this photo : http://www.merkur-online.de/lokales/nachrichten/wikinger-sticht-491572.html . Herbert Glas was / is a leading builder of Tornado racing catamarans, he knows a bit about fast boats.

Then, no holy cows here, how about leaving the waterballast system out to gain more cabin height, and in order to retain the self-righting use ballasted boards or some lead low in the hull instead? The cabin roof can help the self-righting too. If there would be unstayed masts, the compression loads on the cabin roof could be minimal, and that would save weight.

[Johan Ellingsen]

Tony,

What is your practical experience with the twin daggerboards on the CBL?

[Tony]

Tony,

What is your practical experience with the twin daggerboards on the CBL?

Hi, Johan.
In a word, good!   I suppose the boat would go better - especially in light winds when drag will be more of a factor - with one deep centre board, but I get hull speed (5.8 knots) a reach in any thing over f 3 so no complaints. (Oh. I should say that they are not dagger boards but pivoting airfoil sectioned types with rope uphauls - no down haul, gravity takes care of that.)
More details later..

[Johan Ellingsen]

Hi Tony,

Do you keep both foils(sorry)permanently down or do you shift sides when tacking?

Johan

[Tony]

Hi again, Johan.
More about bilge boards on the CBL:-

As I said earlier, a centre board is going to be more efficient but the design of anything involves compromise, especially boats!
Here are a few random points about the bilge boards as fitted to the CBL:

In the cabin, plenty of foot room just inside - where it is most needed - and a shelf each side on top of the cases. This is the main reason for having bilge boards in the first place but, when well designed, not the only advantage. If and when Matt builds a CBL with a centre board we shall see if performance is compromised or, in fact, enhanced. I imagine the choice of sail plan is more of an issue....   
When  heeled well over, water gets into the space outboard of these bilgeboard case, probably through the pivot. I have not bothered to fix this yet as it makes a good wine cooler on one side and a sort of coolbox for fresh food (in waterproof boxes) on the other. Just remember to sponge it out at the end of the day!
Under power, the boards self-park at about 4 knots. Shut the throttle suddenly and they drop down again with a bump.
In theory, raising  the windward board should reduce drag but I cant say Ive noticed much difference. Try to tack with one board up though, and you will wonder what has gone wrong!
On a run you can raise the boards at least halfway without rolling problems.
The CBL doesnt point as high as other Swallowboats (Unless you use the jib) – I think a function of her lug sail rather than the bilge boards – but she makes very little leeway. Apparently much less than more well-known luggers.
Strange things happen in shallow water.  Once the boards touch bottom you cant lift them – unless you can move forward  at the same time.  Approach a beach too closely with the boards down and she will literaly walk up the beach -or even park herself on the trailer!  (Each wave pushes her forward a little and the boards stop her sliding backwards with the undertow.) Not a trick I perform on a regular basis for fear of damage.
To sum up, bilge boards on the CBL are easy to live with and, in fact, add to the boats character - without too many performance issues. (and, in case I created the wrong impression, by the way, I love the balanced lug for its reaching power and ease of use.)

[Tony]

Hi, Claus.

If we are talking  about non-Swallowboat day sailers how about a Hawk 20?  Not really my kind of boat but its fast, sea-worthy and well liked by owners, it seems. Cain version about £22k. Main disadvantages are weight ( just try rowing 816kg, inc nearly 400kg of fixed lead ballast) and a dirty great Seldon mast. (nothing wrong with it but Ive seen folks struggle to set it up.) http://www.hawk20.co.uk/index.htm Too heavy on its braked trailer for lugging all over the country/continent as Swallowboaters seem inclined to do. So do let us keep the water ballast!
I like the unstayed mast, ballasted boards etc.  Thats what I have on Four Sisters, along with a dollop of lead bolted to the bottom, unfortunately. In fact, if  Matt could bolt all my favorite bits of the CBL onto a water ballasted,  self draining Bayraider hull, I might be his first customer for the BayRaider Expedition Model! 
I would want  to swap the washboards for a Lewmar Ocean hatch (quickly slammed shut to keep the ocean out) ......and I suppose I would need a pretty good price for Four Sisters ....and a promise of immunity from physical harm from family members who have warned me what they would do if I ever tried to sell her!