What Boat Next?

[Craic]

... do let us keep the water ballast! ...

Tony,
the water ballast, I love it. But no need to keep it just for itself if it's not really needed. If they can do a lightweight cabin sailer that is self-righting without -much- ballast or waterballast, that would be even better. It's a tough design challenge for sure, but if someone can do it, it is Matt.

[Tony]

HI, Claus.

Agreed. Less to pay for and less to go wrong ... and self-righting after a knockdown by any means possible is just what I want... but wasnt the point of variable ballast that it wasnt there when you DIDNT need it (towing, light winds, racing with experienced crew)  but it prevented a capsise when you DID need it ( heavy weather, fishing, or yours truely on the helm)?   I think I would rather not capsise in the first place for preference.
BTW What do you think of using a Lewmar hatch to replace washboards?

[Alistair McVean]

I have only just caught up with the exchanges about a new Swallowboat design. I had emailed Matt earlier this year asking about the potential for putting a small (crawl in and die) cabin on the BayRaider (with its beautiful shaped hull) in the form of the rounded cabin seen on some Golant Gaffers ie low, with small windage and little resistance to water breaking over the boat. Mostly I expect these would be used for storing stuff like fishing gear and charts, but offering the opportunity to sleep overnight for perhaps 2 successive nights. If you go for a larger hull then you run into the difficulty of moving the boat around the country and the market is awash with low cost secondhand (though often horrible looking) trailerable boats. I watched a Hawk 20 being sailed in Ireland and was impressed by how stiff she was in a strong breeze. Closer inspection suggested a heavy boat & in fact they ofetn seem to be kept on a mooring. A more cabinised version of this idea is the very popular Shrimper and a recent import from China, the Tirion, though this has a keel which rules out easy launching. As to rig, I would want something simple, efficient, easy to put up and to reef in a blow, not an immitation of a bygone era.  It's also worth being realistic in imagining how such a boat would be used. For sailing about the Carrick Roads, port hopping in good weather with some safety margin but not for going to the Scilly Islands or France. For that there is a wide choice of reasonably priced secondhand keelboats (with high running costs).

I thought Matt had summed up the right solution in his latest posting on this thread, though it must be hard to predict what will sell in reasonable numbers.

[Julian Swindell]

Talking of twin bilge boards. I had them on my old Winkle Brig and they use them on the Drascombe Drifter 21. They are fantastic for freeing up cabin space. They were the main reason the Winkle Brig, at only 16ft, had such a useable cabin. I never sailed with both down. I either raised and lowered them as I tacked, if I was feeling energetic, or I just put one down and left it at that. It didn't seem to matter or affect performance much if the board was on the windward side, but then it was a very slow boat anyway (part of the reason I sold it). The fully raised boards projected slightly and acted as bilge runners when you dried out, but they must have added a lot of drag. They were weighted to drop. The only control was a line to raise them with. You can get an idea of them form the photo of her dried out below.

[Johan Ellingsen]

How about this for an idea:take a CBL or Storm 19 hull,possibly stretched by a foot or two,properly ballasted,with a self-draining cockpit;add hinged lifting cabin-top.See McGregor version!

[Julian Swindell]

Johan,
You have to remember that MacGregor, Baden-Powell and all of the early canoe cruisers were barking mad! These were the men who climbed Mount Everest in tweed jackets and stout shoes with a couple of sandwiches as supplies and thought dieing in the process was "A jolly good show, what?"

[Craic]

... but wasnt the point of variable ballast that it wasnt there when you DIDNT need it (towing, light winds, racing with experienced crew)  but it prevented a capsise when you DID need it ( heavy weather, fishing, or yours truely on the helm)?   I think I would rather not capsise in the first place for preference.
BTW What do you think of using a Lewmar hatch to replace washboards?

Hi Tony,
a cabin sailer offers more options for a designer to achieve self-righting than an open boat. Just remember the ocean rowing boats or the rowing lifeboats. No ballast -or very little-, but still they could flip back from an inversion.

The starting point and may be key issue for the proposed basic cabin boat is simplicity and low price. To postulate a fullsize waterballast system for this boat would add complexity and cost. Better avoid it so IF self-righting could be achieved in a simpler or cheaper way, even if that would mean the trailering weight would have to go up from the bare minimum, say by just a 100 pounds.

I do not know the Lewmar hatch you mention, but if it's an expensive thing it should not be built in as standard. OK if owners wish to retrofit it when they have the need for it and spare money. I like the idea of a basic boat that people equip and refine as they go along. More fun that way, and a low entrance investment threshhold to begin it all with.

[Craic]

...
I have actually done some initial sketch work on a "Crawl in and die" cabin for a BR20 but you do hit some problems. The first is the centreboard, which is right in the way. One could put up with this, but it also restricts comfortable seating (with legs outstretched) unless you sit facing aft. Second to get comfortable seating you end up with a cabin that looks too high to my eye. Is sitting headroom inside important? ...

I do think sitting headroom is important.

AND that it can be provided in connection with a low cabin roof.
AND no centreboard, and no sideboards or bilgeboards required.
AND self-righting from a knockdown.
AND decent windward performance.

How?: GRP BayRaider 20 outer hull shell.
No waterballast space, no centreboard or bilgeboards, just a central shallow long keel structure with a somewhat weighted sole, and with two NACA cross-section profile bilgekeels.
Cabin roof from lightweight foam material with positive buoyancy.
Cabin roof superstructure geometry to bring AVS (Angle of Vanishing Stability)-with hatch open- to around 110 degrees or better, in connection with two unstayed masts with own positive buoyancy.
One ACB tank (Asymmetric Capsize Buoyancy)to aid righting from inversion.
Rudderblade with integrated electric pod motor, or a stainless steel rudderblade head sturdy enough to mount one lightweight 2.x HP petrol outboard engine on it.

What do you think?

[gerald turner]

I'll stick me two pennorth in now!

Why not go for something more escoteric ,..like a polynesian Proa,not many of them on the ready built market .and something that might sell,there is an over abundance of conventional boats on the market both new and used.

OR as I had suggested before a centre cockpit boat with a cabin in the stern ala the atlantic row boats

Gerald

[Johan Ellingsen]

@Claus,

Any thoughts on an asymmetric lifting keel/"off-centre board",as on the I.O Wee Seal(in WC57)?

[Tony]

Hi, Gerald.
Proas  have a lot going for them as a coastal touring boat; fast, light, seaworthy and beachable ...but I would think, better for a warmer climate than ours.(All that speed-induced spray!)  I spoke to Matt about them some time ago and he was sure that the UK market for a cruising proa was very limited to the point of non-existence. (But, he has often said that he will design and built anything if folk are willing to pay for it. Sort of the opposite approach to Henry Ford.) The centre cockpit or stern cabin idea has mileage in it ,too, if you can work around the disadvantages of both ends and both masts being inaccessible....and make it look pretty.  Probably not so good on a BayRaider based hull, though.

[Tony]

Hi, Claus, Matt.
I cant argue with Clauses  suggestions – not knowing enough about the dynamics of small boat design – and assuming that the boat can be self- righting and will make to windward  I can see nothing but advantages to them.  I would quite enjoy a boat like that.
I will stick with the Lewmar hatch, stolen from the ocean rowing guys. http://www.oceanrowing.com/All_Relative/photos/5.htm  Expensive, I agree, at about  €300 but what else is so quick and easy to fit for the builder and can make a cabin totally stormproof in an instant?   (http://www.lewmar.com/product-listing.asp?action=search&type=19 )
Without water ballast, has the BR hull enough form stability to avoid being knocked over by every gust?  Could a little lead in the bilge fins compensate for its loss without making her too heavy to trail or move  in light airs?
Sure, removing the tanks would allow a lower cabin top for the same sitting head room but I don't particularly need sitting headroom while sailing. I DO need a boat that can stand up while in an f6. Id far rather have a bomb-proof boat and create the headroom with a sprayhood/cockpit tent combination when I need it port.  This does not mean I would prefer a tent INSTEAD of a cabin. The cabin needs to supply warmth and comfort (something it does far better than any tent) without dominating the design with demands for ever more accommodation.  The cabin plus sprayhood combo on the CBL is about right. You can take off your wet gear in the shelter of the spray hood and keep the cabin bone dry.
Keep the self draining cockpit so the boat wont be troubled  by a stray wave or fill up with rain on a mooring. Built in cockpit bilge pump with a feed from the cabin in case of accidents. 
I  don't like the idea of a petrol engine on the rudder. Too inaccessible, perhaps, and in a 20 foot BayRaider  surely it isn't in the way in its present position?  A built-in electric motor permanently in the water, either on the rudder or as a sort of saildrive leg, would worry me as a source of drag.  Electric motors are so compact it would be quite easy to make a retractable mount in the BRs outboard well. An electric system will survive a dunking better than your average 2hp motor, too, and I am assuming that a BayRaider Expedition ( not a catchy name –but a descriptive one) would get more than its fair share of dunkings !  Battery re-charge still a problem even with a stack of Torqeedo-style clip-on lithium cells, but reading this http://www.torqeedo.com/en/hn/products/cigs-solar-charger-62-w/product-description.html  gives hope for the future.

[Tony]

Hi, Matt.
While on the subject of stability .....

I was working on my boat at the SC the other day, so not sailing - few people were as it was  a weekday – but took the time to measure the windspeed.  25 knots gusting  to 28, not unusual  in these parts.  With a fetch of about 2 miles across the water waves had built up to about 2 feet maximum, plenty of white horses and streaks of foam.  The reactions of sailors coming in for lunch was interesting;
Windsurfers – all smiles , loud talk, obviously having a great time, the word "fantastic" in use a great deal.
Safety boat crew on sit-astride RIB -  no big deal, a bit flipping cold, matter-of-fact attitude.
Experienced crew of a heavy, 2 masted dinghy   -  pale, tight lipped. Did not go out again after lunch.
My point is that this kind of wind is not at all unusual  these days (Climate change, is it?) and sailing any new boat design in such conditions should not feel like a near death experience!  We need the stability of a RIB and the bomb-proofing of a sail board!  Is it possible?
NOTE:-
A force 6 or 7 in the Ionian produces a sea as shown in the photo.  I would think twice about setting out in such a wind myself but have often needed to fight my way home against winds up to F5 to 6. Its the way the winds are in a Greek summer.   I usually drop all sails and motor home, enviously watching the windsurfers!

[Julian Swindell]

Thinking of an expedition BR, the Character Boats Coastal Weekender has some of the ideas people have talked about, but is quite heavy I think.
http://www.characterboats.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57%3Acoastal-weekender&catid=34%3Ademo&Itemid=95

[Craic]

@Claus,

Any thoughts on an asymmetric lifting keel/"off-centre board",as on the I.O Wee Seal(in WC57)?

No, none. Sounds funny.

But why not, any idea welcome that helps to put together an easily trailerable shallow draught cabin sailer based on the existing BayRaider hull which is considerably more spacious, better sailing, a lot safer, prettier and not more expensive than -say- a Drascombe Coaster.