Butane stoves and A4 "butane" cylinders

[Peter Taylor]

Matt recommends (and supplies?) the sort of flat portable butane stoves which take the "A4" size resealable aerosol type gas canister.  I have adopted the same sort of stove to power my Pan2000 cabin heater (see separate thread). Searching the web with regard to available stove types and also for a cheap source of gas I've found all sorts of confusion.  As a result I've got some comments and questions:

(1) what sort of stove do people use? There seems to be an "outdoors only" type which has a safety cut-out if the gas pressure is too high. The "indoors" type has in addition, a second cut-out if the flame goes out. With these "indoor" stoves you have to hold the gas knob fully open for a few seconds after lighting to establish the flame.

If you have the "indoors" type what make and model is it? Is it reliable? (mine, an almost new Bright Spark BS100, now fails to light and is about to be returned).  Is there any reason not to use the simpler "outdoors" type provided you watch to ensure the flame stays lit? Does anyone do that?

(2) gas canisters: some are 227gm net and contain butane, some are 220gm net and contain a mixture of butane and propane (typically 20% to 30% propane). The latter are much better in cold weather.  However if you try to buy them on the web there is confusion between the two types - I ordered Topflame ones which I believe are a mixture, and got supplied with Marksman ones which were pure butane.  The suppliers "thought they were all the same".

Does anyone know a reliable supplier? I am presently using "Butane Battery" ones from BrightSpark which have added propane and they are reliable supplier but not the cheapest (28 canisters for £45 i.e. £1-60 each).

(3) something I found out: in the canister is a tube which (when the notch in the tube collar is facing up) ensures that gas, rather than liquid, is propelled through the valve.  Inverting the tube can lead to a major flare up of the spilt liquid fuel - which has happened when people have used the canisters with an adaptor to power the vertical type of camping stove. - no it wasn't me!

Peter

[Michael Rogers]

Peter, it's probably irrelevant and/or useless information, but I know for model steam railway locos (or, I guess, model traction engines - no experience of those) which are gas fired, the burners are specifically designed for EITHER butane OR butane/propane mixture, and it's not a good idea to use the wrong fuel. I wonder if the same applies to the sort of heaters you're describing, as a safety or efficiency issue, or both? For example, does the stove which won't light need a different fuel mix? Probably not, just a thought.

[Peter Taylor]

Hi Michael, no that's not the problem. Raising steam in a model is a trickier task than powering these portable stoves (I have a steam driven model boat!). A different burner may be more efficient because addition of propane results in a higher pressure (hence the mix cans only contain 220g, as against 227g of pure butane). However the pressure reaching the burners of a stoves varies considerably depending on the temperature of the canister which cools significantly during use. The problem with my stove is that the flame sensing cut out (used in "indoor" stoves) has failed, which (looking on the web) appears to be not uncommon problem. That is why I'm asking if people use the "outdoor only" types on their boats or have recommendations for a reliable "indoor" type.

[Peter Cockerton]

Peter

Found these on Amazon which on the face of it look cheaper

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Butane-Camping-Bottles-Canister-Refills/dp/B00QJ1OM44/ref=sr_1_3?s=outdoors&ie=UTF8&qid=1420621033&sr=1-3&keywords=Marko+Outdoor

Stating the obvious but surely you wouldn't rely on a non flame out detection version of the cooker to be used in your boat.

Peter Cockerton

[Tony]

To/
Peter C. They look like a bargain! Cheers!

To/
Peter T.
Propane good for mountaineers as vaporises better at a lower temp ( and higher altitude) than Butane - but at "normal" temperatures and pressures Butane gives a higher calorific output. Heats your water quicker.

I've been using a couple of those "flat" table top stoves in preference to tippy camping style stoves on my boat since she was built. The cheap and cheerful sort work just fine - just remember to flick the "Eject" lever off after you've finished cooking. They are easy to set up, belt the heat out in a controllable fashion nearly as well as my "beloved" old paraffin stove and light instantly without pre-heating. I've used Trangia alcohol stoves - they perform well until you spill the meths and have invisible flames licking around your backside; Paraffin stoves - great heat output but temperamental...and EVERYTHING ends up smelling of the stuff; ridiculously small butane backpacking stoves - useless on a boat unless you hold the pan all the time. No. Give me the "waiters friend" every time!
By the way. I NEVER use the stoves inside the cabin. A paraffin flare-up in a confined space is a salutary experience but that's not the reason. I won't use ANY stove in the cabin, preferring to cook and eat in the cockpit. From here I can see if any RIB- induced Tsunami is coming my way and  any spillage is easily dealt with. Besides, I do a pretty good curry but don't want my sleeping bag to smell of it for weeks afterwards....and it's the ONLY place I'm allowed to cook kippers!

[Tony]

Ooops! This is the picture I meant to send......

[Julian Swindell]

I've gone from the common little gas stove to an alcohol stove for the last season. The gas stoves were very good, except when it was cold, when they just lost all pressure. I resorted to putting the cylinder into my sleeping bag (very unpleasant), which got it going enough to start heating the water, then taking the cylinder out and standing it in the warm water to get it really going! Not sure how any of that meets H&S standards.

The Origo alcohol stove I now use is just about as hot, and works fine at the lowest temperatures I have tried it at. The only problems with it are that it is completely silent and the flame is near invisible. This means you can burn yourself on it when you think it is off, and you can wait for ages for it to boil anything before you realise that it is out. You also need long matches to light it and it is tricky to relight when hot, as the whoomf when it catches blows the match and the flame out. I've also found the Origo, although expensive, seems much more robust. I never got a gas stove to last reliably for more than one season. And I am much happier not having any gas on board now.

[Graham W]

I use a Trangia multi-fuel burner on top of my centreboard casing, as in the photo. This set-up (minus the red fuel cylinder) can also be used with a simple Trangia meths burner, with the disadvantages that Tony mentions.

[Peter Taylor]

Hi folks,
thanks for your replies!

to: Peter C. - I think those are pure butane, I'm looking for butane/propane mixture ones. And... actually I have used the "outdoor non-flame detection" variety on the boat and I suspect others do too! Most of those stoves are of that type.  What I never do is leave a burning stove unsupervised. However I'd much rather use a "flame detection" model provided it is reliable.

to: Tony - are you trying to make me hungry?!

to: Julian - yes, I too use an Origo stove with bio-ethanol (in their incredibly expensive gimbals) for cooking (in or out of the cabin). It sounds to me that you were probably using the butane only cylinders although even the ones with added propane struggle at air temperatures below around 10C.  I sleep with a cylinder in my sleeping bag and seem to manage a better relationship with it than you did!!!

to: All - I probably wasn't clear enough. I'm wanting the gas cooker to power my cabin heater (rather than for cooking).  And I want to be able to use the boat to live in/sleep on even if the air temperature is down to freezing. ...in theory I might also sail it sometimes, but the present gales are limiting that part of the plan! 

The spirit stove will work in the cold (that's why I bought it for cooking) but it creates soot in the cabin heater and the fuel is relatively inefficient (ethanol gives around 30MJ/kg as against around 50MJ/kg for both propane and butane). I'm finding that if the evening temperature is around 5C then one gas canister will keep the cabin temperature at around 20C for a few hours over two evenings (provided you start with a warm canister!) whereas I would use quite a quantity of ethanol with less effect.  So...

(1) I'm looking for a cheap, reliable source of Butane/propane canisters and

(2) I'd like a reliable "indoor i.e. flame detection" type stove. The Bright Spark BS100 is one model, what other models do people have experience of? Most of the stoves advertised are "outdoors only".

With regard to the problem with my present cooker, I may just have been unlucky since Bright Spark are being very helpful with regard to the replacement or repair of it.  Bright Spark are also the only reliable supplier of suitable gas canisters I've found so far.  So maybe I've found my own answers!

Why I thought I'd ask on the forum is that when you search the web they don't distinguish between butane and butane/propane and even if they quote the weight (which should indicate the contents), they don't always supply what's advertised!

[Tony]

Quote #1 : From Peter Taylor

to: Tony - are you trying to make me hungry?!

                 Do you want the recipe?


Quote #2:

to: All - I probably wasn't clear enough. I'm wanting the gas cooker to power my cabin heater (rather than for cooking).  And I want to be able to use the boat to live in/sleep on even if the air temperature is down to freezing. ..

                    It's been said before; Flames in small cabins are dangerous, make condensation to soak your bedding and generate carbon monoxide at inconvenient moments.
A few hot water bottles strategically placed and wrapped in a layer of fleece, will keep you and the cabin warm for four or five hours at the cost of a little tedious kettle boiling (in the cockpit) ....and it'll use less gas than running a heater all night.
Too low-tech for you, is it?



To Graham;
I love your multifuel Trangia. I might convert my Meth burner as the wind shielding on it is super-efficient for a quick cuppa.  (The kettle that comes with the kit is too small for all them hot water bottles, though.)

[Peter Taylor]

Hi Tony,

I won't ask for the recipe since you won't let me cook in the cabin!!! 

I think I'd need quite a few hot water bottles to quickly raise the temperature of Seatern's cabin when it's near or below freezing outside. The whole point of the Pan2000 heater I'm using is that all the exhaust gases - water vapour and CO included - are vented outside. It produces no extra condensation inside and the digital display on the CO alarm indicates no CO at all.  With regard to the flame, that is almost completely enclosed by the heat collector and the cooker mount is fastened in place, so the entire heater setup can't move - however big the rib wake.  All nearby items are also secure -  I'm well used to fastening everything down from my times spent on small ships.

I'd never leave a heater running while asleep* so for me it's important in the morning to be able to get the cabin temperature quickly back up to a comfortable level - which my heater does well, I get an almost instant warm air stream. I wouldn't fancy being crouched before dawn in an icy cockpit boiling water for hot water bottles to try to thaw out the cabin.   But maybe I'm just the Swallow Boats equivalent of a "glamper"; I sometimes think so!

Peter

*me and the morning's gas cylinder spend the night huddled side by side in a mummy type sleeping bag!

[Jonathan Stuart]

Peter,

Sorry, I am shamelessly adding to the conversation re cooking burners in general rather than your intended topic about heating. However, if I had a cabin with space to fit a heater then I would consider a charcoal burner, e.g. http://www.hampshireheaters.co.uk/ (as used on the BC25) or http://www.charcoalheater.com/.

While I never used one, I've never been a fan of the flat, cartridge type gas stoves because of their reputation for slow boil times. I don't know if that still holds true but they seem to sacrifice performance for convenience (which is not necessarily a bad thing and especially on a small boat). But it wouldn't surprise me if most or all cartridges for such stoves are butane because of the intended use. Conversely, camping canisters are almost always propoane combined with butane and/or isobutane (the "best" cartridges seem to use isobutane these days in addition to or instead of butane but I have no idea what it is and am resisting the temptation to Google it) to deliver best performance.

However, in my experience at usual UK temperatures, it is the stove that affects boil times more than the canister. I use my old Coleman Alpine because it's a "proper" camping stove with a boil time is not much slower than my parafin/petrol stove (and without the potential for 3' of yellow flame if you don't pre-heat enough!) yet it doesn't sit on the canister (unlike many fast boil stoves) so is very stable.

You mentioned inadvertently inverting gas cartridges. This is something often done by climbers, etc, because it produces better heat in cold conditions. However, the stove must be designed for such use by (I think) having a pre-heat tube. Without one you get liquefied gas coming out of the stove.....Having said that, last time I tried this the liquid gas gummed up my stove and I had to burn out the blockage by dismantling the gas burner and heating it over my petrol stove! Not sure why that happened - it was an old gas cartridge that I was using up but I don't understand why that would affect things.

Anyway, I'm well off topic now so I'll stop here!

[Graham W]

Continuing to ski off topic, those of us who don't have the luxury of a cabin in need of heating have to rely on a sleeping bag to keep us warm. And then we freeze when we get up the following morning. 

These people do sleeping bags well suited to the task http://www.oceansleepwear.co.uk/  The bags are expensive (but we saved money by not buying a cabin), very large and quite heavy but they definitely work well. 

[Peter Taylor]

To Graham: those sleeping bags look really good although as you say, expensive. A cheaper alternative is available from angling suppliers (e.g. http://www.anglingdirect.co.uk/store/advanta-sleepcell-4-season-sleeping-bag ). Anglers have a similar problem to us in that they need a waterproof sleeping bag. No idea how good the bags actually are.

To Jonathan: while Seatern was being built I looked seriously at getting a charcoal heater.  The problem was where to mount one. Being a "permanent" installation, it means committing a region of the boat, summer and winter, to housing the heater. But beyond that, on a BC20 I couldn't find a suitable site that would give the recommended headroom clearance. I was worried that a charcoal heater would be a potential source of copious amounts of CO if the airflow through it were poor due to an inadequate chimney system. The pan2000 heater I'm using also requires a minimum chimney length but it is easier to site at a lower level in the boat.  Also partial combustion of the fuel (spirit or gas) is less likely than with charcoal (although some CO is produced with all fuels). The big advantage of the pan2000 (apart from instant heat) is that it can be easily stored away for sailing, or even completely removed from the boat for summer just by undoing a single jubilee clip.

The flat stoves do vary, my nearly new BS100 (flame detection) stove burns more efficiently than my older BS110 stove.  However I'm sure that the "slow boil time" reputation of cartridge stoves is due to people using all butane (boiling point about 0C) cartridges in cooler conditions. Since the cartridge cools several degrees during use, even at say 10C air temperature the canister may be too cold to provide gas.  The "Butane Battery" cartridges from Bright Spark contain between 20% to 30% propane. Other makes of "butane" cartridges do contain propane but it is hard to determine which. My rule of thumb is that a net weight of 220g (rather than 227g) indicates added propane.  Gas cylinders have thicker walls than cartridges and are able to  contain higher proportions of propane (boiling point around -40C, hence higher vapour pressure) than the cartridges. Btw, the higher partial pressure of propane results in another catch... a butane/propane mix will become increasingly dominated by butane as the cartridge is used. I first discovered that with a steam powered model boat!

The problem with the flat stoves is that it's hard to keep the cartridge from cooling - for a stove with a separate canister, placing the canister in water (even cold water) works quite well. Modifying a cartridge stove to supply warmth to the cartridge would be possible but the specs say it must stay below 50C - so what might be OK in winter might be a disaster in summer. My present solution is to alternate two cartridges, allowing one to rewarm while the other is in use.  Since they are quick to swap (compared to screw type canisters) this works OK.

Peter

[Tony]

Hi, Peter.
Good technical post, if I may say so....
Oceansleepwear stuff is brilliantly good. (Next time I plan a voyage  in the Southern Ocean I'll take a close look.) The high price is due to a number of factors; made for Yotties (if you can afford the boat why scrimp on materials?); small(ish) market (Yotties again. Most people using sleeping bags in extreme conditions worry about the weight so fibre pile ruled out); Extreme sailors - and that includes out-of-season small boat sailors- need the thing to be  bomb proof. You get what you pay for.
As you say, gear designed for anglers is a good alternative choice (All night carp fishers like to keep warm, too.) and the larger market brings economies of scale.

For the cooking I do on "Four Sisters" the cheap "flat" stoves are adequate but I will adopt your trick of using "pre-warmed" canisters in cold weather. Many are the times I've discarded a canister thinking it to be nearly empty only to find it working fine later. Can't say I look forward to the pre -warming, though. The only way I can think of to do it is inside the sleeping bag at night or under my sweater during the day. Brrrr!
Seals manage with just blubber. Why can't we?