masthead floats

[Graham W]

perhaps the most fundamental issue is balancing the capsize risk against circumstances.

Absolutely agree!  When cruising, I'm in less of a hurry and take a belt and braces approach to safety.  When racing with safety boats nearby, I'll adopt a riskier approach and have to accept the consequences if it goes wrong.

At Mylor, I had thought that there was no risk at all before I was unceremoniously dumped into the river.  I had shaken out my reef and was getting so hot in the windless conditions that I even took off my buoyancy vest.  When turtler no. 1 went in on the corner, that should have alerted me to unusual conditions, especially given who it was.  But since I wasn't aware of the risk of downdrafts, I became turtler no. 2. Now that I'm aware of this as a risk in steep-sided valleys, it might not happen next time and I'll be even more careful about securing loose objects.

I was flipped over so fast and with such force that I think only an ugly buoyancy device right at the top of the yard would have stopped me going on to turtle.  I'm less confident that a device lower down at the top of the mast would have helped because by the time that the mast had hit the water and before the port tanks flooded, I was probably already 20-30° below horizontal and with significant continuing downward momentum.  Considering how much stress the yard is safely subjected to in high winds, I'm not sure that an inflated buoyancy device at the top of the yard when under water represents a great deal of additional stress.  Additional weight and windage aloft is a different matter.  And I'm fairly sure that because I was unaware of the downdraft risk, I would not have had a buoyancy device in position in any case. 

Stress on the yard caused by harpooning the bottom probably carries a greater risk of damage and I'm surprised and pleased that when it happened to me, the boat was completely unscathed.  By the way, getting back onto the hull and subsequently into the boat over the stern (twice) must have been an absolute doddle because I don't even remember doing it.

I also have an electric Rule pump, kept loose in the starboard locker.  I connect it to my battery with a cigar lighter plug, chuck it into the main ballast tank inspection hatch, stick the outflow hose into the outboard well and through the lamellae (to get a bit of a syphon effect going) and my tank empties completely in less than 15 minutes.  It's really only for use in port and needs quite a big battery - mine's a lightweight but powerful LiFePO4.  If I'm underway, then I empty through the bungs into the sump and from there through the self bailers (the externally-mounted Andersen New Large is excellent).  If I'm doing less than four knots, I use my Whale Urchin pump.  A big bucket-shaped hand bailer is also effective, as I found when I had to empty my flooded port locker.

So, the first race at Mylor was a big learning experience and apart from the cost of an elderly iPhone and camera (which will be properly secured from now on), not something that I regret at all.  Whether I would want to practice doing it again, as John suggests, is doubtful.

Steve's quick reefing idea is interesting.  With two reefing positions on a standard gunter mainsail compared to one on his smaller sail, it might involve quite a lot of string, unless you just do it for one reefing position.  My reduced mainsail (for cruising) doesn't have a yard and is held against the mast by parrel bead strops.  Reefing is therefore just a matter of dropping the halyard to the only reefing position, dealing with the outhaul and downhaul, then bundling up the excess sail.  No doubt BRe owners are highly amused by all these complications.

Sorry to hear about your ribs Steve.  Was that on the first morning too?

[steve jones]

I broke my ribs, on the Tuesday morning, having stayed the night at Mylor prior to sailing in company to Malpas. It was my next to last day as I had been sleeping on my boat at St. Just and Roseland  since the previous week, so I only missed  one days sailing.
    I have made provision for taking in the second reef on a full mainsail so only use one reefing line and one extra cleat, it helps with a harbour furl as well, the gaff is a standard size for a BR17, but I have built in a broom stick to enable screws to be taken up. I had an idea to fit a track to enable the 'reefing' line to act as a peak halyard, and the 'main' halyard to act as a throat halyard, but I think I will stick with the present arrangement. 

Being shouted at by my wife and daughter from 250 miles away was the worst bit!

Steve J  BR17 Nona Me

[garethrow]

Reading stories and discussions of capsizes with interest.

As a Storm 17 I don't have recourse to water ballast and very few rescue facilities - so tend to err on caution ..... in theory. I have capsized once - deliberately as a practice to see if I could right the boat - which I could, but struggled to get back in (another previous topic of discussion). My question to recent immersion experts is - what happened to your engines? When I did my practice capsize I had removed the engine. Has anyone capsized / turtled a Storm with engine on-board?

Regards

Gareth Rowlands
S17 Gwennol Teifi

[Graham W]

I haven't heard of any Storm capsizes - have there been any, or is it just us BR20 lunatics, plus the occasional CBL and junk rig enthusiast?

I was using a Torqeedo, which is waterproof anyway.  I understand that others (including turtler no.1 at Mylor) have managed to keep their petrol outboards out of the water.  You can see from the photo below that even after extensive flooding of voids and locker on the port side, the BR20 mast base and centreboard case are still quite a long way clear of the water.

[Michael Rogers]

This 'junk rig enthusiast' didn't capsize for that reason, Graham! (You probably didn't intend to imply that, fair enough.) And so far as quick reefing is concerned, I think folks know that was the reason for my going in for junk rig in the first place, in the context of my first boat, a Storm Petrel which, saving Nick Newland's presence, must be one of the tippiest non-racing-dinghy designs ever. So I can be smug on the reefing front, plus umpteen other advantages of JR. Yes, OK OK that's enough of that..

There is one aspect of this discussion about the 'tip-trip-turtle' sequence which has struck me. Is it a consequence of the amount of buoyancy modern boats have? Graham's photo shows this, and I remember being briefly (VERY briefly, before she turtled) almost astonished at how high in the water  Cavatina floated while on her side (this off Durdle Door last year). Has 'more buoyancy = more safety' been taken too far? Might boats be more safe with less? Discuss.

I started this thread by being facetious about the Crewsaver mast float, so I might just mention that I did a dry-hoist (on land) today, and - no more joking - I was pleasantly surprised. It lies on the port side of the yard and, despite stretching from the peak to opposite the point where the yard obliquely crosses the mast (on the starboard side of the sail), it was surprisingly unobtrusive (yes, I did inflate it!). In fact, and being very subjective, it had a business-like, this-is-a-well-found-little-boat look about it. Once I have organised proper fixings for it, I will take it to sea, at least for my more 'offshore' voyages. I think it would almost certainly prevent the 'trip' part of the sequence, at least on my little boat, and I don't think it would interfere significantly with her sailing performance. However, the only way I would join in a capsizing weekend would be in the Aegian or Caribbean, somewhere with kind enough water temperatures!

Michael R

[Matthew P]

A "capsize weekend" could be informative and fun.  We would need a venue, a boat (Ella?), a competent rescue boat and and crew (not me then) and a knowledgeable and preferably a well qualified instructor.  I'd be willing to pay a modest amount (not hundreds) if these could be provided.  Perhaps someone knows a sailing school who would host a capsize symposium at reasonable cost?

I'm sorry you had an injury to your ribs Steve, hopefully they are less painful now and your nearest and dearest have calmed down. I'm interested in your rapid reefing system, could you post a photo? I rigged a second topmast halyard direct to the second reef position and betimes it works well but although I used 6mm dynamo for both halyards and opened the "dumb sleeve" at the mast head slightly to create two separate grooves for them they are prone to jamming making reefing impossible without lowering the mast - not what I intended.  On the Falmouth rally I nearly missed my cream tea at the Pandora Inn because i had to sort out a halyard jam (must be a pun in there somewhere).  Matt Newland suggested candle waxing the halyard to reduce friction but I've not tried it - has anyone?  If I was brave I would look at putting twin pulleys for the halyards to go over the masthead but I'm concerned not to to weaken this critical part of boat.  I also rigged a second out-hall direct to the sail but the amount of string needs better management.  I might resort to a Graham-W style topping lift instead and practice dropping the topmast quickly.

Michael makes an interesting point about excess buoyancy, tempting me to convert the self-flooding buoyancy tank into locker space but any weight added there would very bad place for stability and no doubt the size and position of the existing flooding port have been carefully designed.

Somehow I have reversed the quote and text on this post.     Time to quit I think.

Matthew
BR20 Gladys
 

[Graham W]

This 'junk rig enthusiast' didn't capsize for that reason, Graham! (You probably didn't intend to imply that, fair enough.)

I definitely didn't intend to imply that Michael.  I was just trying to do a full roll call of all known members of the Honourable Society of Turtlers.

There is one aspect of this discussion about the 'tip-trip-turtle' sequence which has struck me. Is it a consequence of the amount of buoyancy modern boats have? Graham's photo shows this

Had my ballast tank been full, I'm sure that the photo would have shown the boat as being much lower in the water.  But then I doubt that I would have capsized in the first place. Given the apparent 80% turtling rate following capsize of unballasted BR20's, the extra hull buoyancy causing the top of the mainsail to drive under the water may well be implicated.  So, don't capsize if you can avoid it and if you can't, take comfort from the ease with which you can get back over the stern and from the asymmetric buoyancy system - unless you've harpooned the seabed.

[Graham W]

Matt Newland suggested candle waxing the halyard to reduce friction but I've not tried it - has anyone?

I was going to try it until a Google search suggested that it wasn't a good idea, without explaining why. It can't do any harm can it?  Another suggestion that I have found is to coat the dumb sheave surface with a thin layer of epoxy into which graphite has been mixed.

If I was brave I would look at putting twin pulleys for the halyards to go over the masthead but I'm concerned not to to weaken this critical part of boat

I seem to remember that an erstwhile prolific contributor to the forum built a proper rotating sheave into the top of his mast (where the BR20 dumb sheave is) and posted a photo of same.  Of course, the photo is no longer available for view but if it could be done with one sheave, presumably it is also possible with two.

[jonno]

I'll attempt to start a new thread elsewhere about a 'capsize weekend'.

John

[maxr]

Michael Rogers said:

'...Has 'more buoyancy = more safety' been taken too far? Might boats be more safe with less? Discuss...'

I had a Wanderer Esprit dinghy, which was basically an updated Wanderer with a false floor full of buoyancy. On that boat, the standard gunwale buoyancy tank mouldings had a number of 3" holes cut in them below the 'floating on its side' water level, and covered with locker ventilator grilles, plus substantial vents at floor level. The gunwale tanks had to fill up with water when capsized, because (quote from one of the builders about the first boat without this feature) 'no b****r could reach the centreboard otherwise'. When the boat went over, the submerged gunwale took on water and seemed to damp the rolling motion when it came up, so reducing the chances of the 'up and over the other side' comedy routine most dinghy sailors know and love.

[Peter Taylor]

Has 'more buoyancy = more safety' been taken too far? Might boats be more safe with less? Discuss.

I repeat a comment I made in the "How water ballast works" thread  ( http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,1094.0.html ) based on experience gained sailing racing dinghies, in particular the Seafly Class...

"When masts were wooden turning turtle happened less often than when they became alloy.  I think it is generally accepted ...[in racing dinghy circles]...  that having a lot of buoyancy in the side tanks makes a dinghy much more likely to turtle. If the capsized dinghy floats at an angle such that the top of the mast and sail dip under water then, if the hull is blown downwind, the water pressure on the sail forces the boat to turtle even if the mast is buoyant.  John Claridge Boats have redesigned the side tanks on a new version of the Seafly dinghy specifically to minimise that happening.  The idea is to allow the hull to partially sink so the hull (when on it's side) is vertical and the mast and sail lie parallel to the water.  This also makes it easier to get onto the centreboard from the water.  The alternative solution is .... some form of mast top buoyancy.  Given that Matt favours fat headed mainsails, maybe new sails could have a buoyant top panel incorporated.  Even a little buoyancy that far up would help." (end of old comment)

When I first started sailing my Seafly single handed on the river I fitted some extra buoyancy bags ahead of the built in buoyancy tanks because I didn't want the boat to turtle and stick its mast into the mud.  I soon realised that was exactly the wrong thing to do!  Not only did it increase the chance of turtling, but if the boat stayed on its side it came upright practically empty and it was almost impossible to get back into it!  Hence I took out the buoyancy bags and adopted the 9l Crewsaver masthead float. I have also learnt that it is better to pause in bringing the boat upright to ensure enough water has entered the hull to allow me to get back into it once its upright!

Now I am mainly sailing my BC20 "Seatern" rather than my Seafly I am gradually increasing in experience and hence cowardice and tend more and more to sail with the ballast tanks full  ...which does of course cut down the amount of buoyancy as well as increasing the righting moment. I hope I don't find out what effect this has in a capsize!
Peter