Inadvertent dips

[steve jones]

 I must extol the virtues of a flotation suit for winter sailing and working on deck. I do not like life jackets in small boats like ours ,subject to knockdowns or capsize, getting back on board can be really difficult, and they are vulnerable to puncture.  Deep sea sailing is another story.

  I sail solo in the winter on my Cornish Crabber  and find a 50n floatation suit ( mine is a Mullion cost around £170 ) useful for deck work  being  warm and waterproof and hard wearing, might be a bit warm to wear in summer though.

  Steve Jones  BR17   Nona Me

   
 

[Rob Johnstone]

I think you might be right about self inflating LJ's in small(ish) yachts that are have the possibility of capsize. It never really occurred to me and I happily took Vagabond round Britain using an LJ that I had used on much larger craft.

The other day I was testing it to make sure that it stayed blown up and realised that, when fully inflated, the thing was so cumbersome that it would probably be difficult to do much in it, let alone grab hold of the centre-board and the like. So I think a bouyancy aid type of LJ would now be my preferred approach.

On the subject of flotation / immersion suits my experience of my Fladen suit suggests that they even help you to get warm after a wetting. Whilst on passage from Inverness to Helmsdale two years ago, a cold sea broke over the side of the cockpit. At that point I was not even wearing normal foul weather gear and got soaked to the skin. I hove to and struggled into the Fladen suit, wet as I was. Within about 30 minutes I was still wet, but warm.

[Graham W]

I'm also impressed with my Fladen suit, especially at the sort of price that you can get it for.  As used by Scottish offshore fishermen.

[Matthew P]

As a Turtle Club veteran    I share Steve's views about the wisdom of self-inflating life jackets on small boats.  Once a life jacket is inflated, managing a capsize or simply swimming to safety is difficult.  On the other hand a buoyancy aid on its own is inadequate if one is in the water for more than a few minutes or are incapacitated.  I now wear a simple buoyancy aid all the time  with a separate, manually activated, life jacket on top. 

My preferred buoyancy aid is a Trebord gillet from Decathlon as recommended by Maxr in the  previous string http://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/smf/index.php/topic,241.msg8185.html#msg8185 

I have found this very warm and practical and I have even worn it to the pub (black side out) without being arrested by the fashion police.  More details of the Trebord "life vest" can be seen at :

http://www.tribord.co.uk/izeber-floating-system-mens-warm-and-buoyant-life-vest-black-id_8309128?_ga=1.187044840.1578197250.1453497144

Belt and braces - because the Trebord is not enough on its own in a real emergency I use a life jacket on top, as mentioned above. My life jacket has a gas bottle but is type that is manually  activated by tugging on a toggle, not inflating automatically when it comes in contact with water.  This also avoids hilarious incidents of the life jacket popping-off inside damp lockers. 

The life jacket is the type with a built-in harness and hefty D ring on the front for attaching a safety line.  There is some debate about the wisdom of a using a safety line in a capsizeable boat or the possibility of being towed under water if one falls out when the boat is moving.  However, the D ring seems a useful point of attachment if a line can be grabbed (or boat hook?) and rescuers need to haul one out.  All very gloomy stuff and I hope never to put this to the test.  I'd welcome opinions.   

Please don't tell me it is best not to end up in the water in the first place, yes, I know!

Matthew
BR20 Gladys

[BobT]

First I have heard of floatation suits and a very logical option they would look to be especially when used with a life jacket. I had a poke around online where most of the info seems to be for fishing. Apart from having built in buoyancy are they very different from sailing suits as sold by the likes of Musto and others?

By the way one of the sites I looked at stated that if you wanted to be sure of the "self righting" effect of a life-jacket whilst worn with a floatation suit you needed to go for the higher buoyancy rating (275 I think).
Regards,
Bob

[Tony]

Hi, Steve.
Couldn't agree more about self inflating life jackets on small boats.
Years ago there was a thread on this forum about "Getting back on board."  Watercraft mag picked it up and ran an article
on the subject, getting some brave soul to throw himself off the back of a boat to test a commercially made kick down boarding step on the transom.  He had to partially deflate his life jacket to get back on board as its bulk made it impossible to get over the transom, even with the step! 
My own experience of "doing a 180" is limited (thank goodness) to August in the Ionian. (inshore water temp 25 deg C) wearing only a swim suit. From total inversion I got "Four Sisters" upright in a swamped condition, kept the mizzen up to keep her head to wind and waves and started bailing! (Getting back on board was easy as she only had about a foot of freeboard at that point!) It all ended happily - (would have been a very different story in cold water, I'd have been an ex-sailor) - except for a chap (professional crew of a large yacht) who kindly decided to wade in to help me moor  the boat as I came to shore. A wave set off his self-inflating jacket, the next one knocked him off his feet and he was heading for Albania before he untangled himself and swam back, towing the offending article behind him! The language was extremely professional!
In the UK I always wear a floatation vest and in winter a drysuit under it. I've tried swimming in this gear and it's just about do-able......but only WITH the floatation jacket. Without it I end up floating face down with my backside in the air, it's almost impossible to get your feet down!
When the drysuit dies my next purchase will be a Fladen which  will wear with a floatation jacket , not an inflatable LJ !

The above only applies to small boats. If I ever sail offshore again on a cruiser I will be purchasing a "state-of-the-art" life jacket with pockets full of personal locator beacon, VHF, flares, inflatable Dan buoy, spray hood, a packed lunch and more flashing lights than a fairground ride. A thousand drowned yachtsmen can't be wrong!

[Peter Taylor]

I've mentioned in a different thread that, in my days going out on oceanographic Research Ships (e.g. to the Grand Banks in November) Mullion X4 flotation suits were out standard issue both for working on deck and for emergency drills.  The advantage of a flotation suit over a dry suit is that if you do go in the water it allows water in and doesn't have trapped air to keep your legs in the air and your head down.  Equally, the water can drain out as you get back into your boat/onto the life raft. However, because of the inherent buoyancy of the suit,  you do need a extra large volume lifejacket if you want to be sure of being turned on your back if unconscious. 

I've tried using a Mullion for winter sailing but found I got too hot and sweaty if doing something active like getting the mast up and down. They are also very bulky to store.  I'm wondering about buying a different flotation suit but if I do I think I'll go for a two part one to have better temperature  control and to make it easier to dry out any condensation inside it.  Over it I would wear a manually inflated lifejacket with harness and crutch straps (as I do now with standard waterproofs).  For less cold weather the Trebord gilet coupled with my manual life jacket sounds a very good idea, I must visit Decathlon!

I assume everyone knows that to swim in an inflated lifejacket, flotation suit etc. you do so on your back using strong leg kicks. Obvious, but perhaps not to Tony's "professional crew"/would be helper?

Peter

[Tony]

Hi, Peter.
I sympathise with the "hot and sweaty" bit.   Putting the drysuit on before launching the boat is a mistake I only made once. Raising the mast and bending on the sails etc. generated enough heat, even on a very cold day, to make me a boil-in-the-bag yachtie.  Once out on the water I began to appreciate exactly why the Inuit could not be made to raise a sweat when working for American oil companies in Alaska - unjustly earning a reputation for being lazy! I felt I needed a wetsuit under my drysuit  even though I was wearing "warm when wet" thermals. After an hour in a cold F3/4  I'd had enough and came in with visions of a hot shower, pie and a pint. Hauling the lugger out and putting her to bed, however, soon had steam bursting through the neck and wrist seals again. So much for breathable fabric!

The "Professional Crewman" I spoke about was a young chap built like a brick outhouse - and a powerful swimmer. He was only in waist deep water when the LJ self-inflated. I think he got knocked over when, in his embarrassment, he was trying to take the inflated jacket off (!) and got into a tangle with the crotch strap. I can't be sure exactly what happened as I was still bailing !

[Peter Taylor]

Hi folks, I just discovered today that you don't have to capsize! For £6.99 you can buy a spray from Boots (the Chemist) that squirts sea water up your nose in the comfort of your own home  - much less hassle! What's more the sea water has been filtered so doesn't contain flip-flops, etc. 
http://www.boots.com/en/Vicks-Vapo-Spray-Sea-Water-100ml_1651544/
Peter

[Michael Rogers]

Nice one, Peter (T) - absolutely hilarious! What will they think of next?!

Re flotation suits, I think I can claim to have floated (ha-ha) the idea on the forum, way back (haven't checked when: and OK, if I hadn't someone else probably would have in due course), when the idea was received, as I recall, with some scepticism, the main difficulty being to grasp the concept of being wet-but-warm, not being liable to be dragged under by waterlogging, and the difference between a FS and a dry suit. I agree that really the only major drawback is that a FS get very warm to wear in anything but coolish-to-cold weather. Wonderfully snug in winter.

I actually had a problem with my Fladen suit (little used) in that the v chunky-looking front zip packed up in November. (I guess regular zip lubrication, which I don't do, is a sensible discipline, perhaps especially if it isn't much used.) Actually it was one of those double-slider jobs which I don't see the point of. Anyway, I found a friendly dry-cleaners-with-a-repair-service and provided them with as sturdy a replacement zip (single slider) as I could find which they've sewn in. Not as blatantly chunky as the original, but I hope it will serve. And, once they've finished the new slipway at Studland (see elsewhere), I hope to go a-fladening again.

Michael Rogers          (Trouper 12 'Cavatina')

[steve jones]

Michael,
             I bought my FS as a working overall for working on the deck of my Cornish Crabber, but found that it was great for sailing in the winter, it has been comfortably warm even with heaving on the hundreds of bits of string associated with a gaff cutter. On the BR I wear an impact buoyancy aid, and add a manual lifejacket if coastal, it seems that everyone else does! I shall look for your post , and we can then see  those that thought it a bad idea, may be boarding them at rallies and checking for compliance would be in order.

Peter,
          Trying not to lapse into a Monty Python sketch, Flotation suits supplied by NERC  - luxury! I too was a NERC employee pre Southhampton move, as part of the scientific party we were issued with oilskins, thermals, balaclava,polo necked guernsey , for the Antarctic cruises , the crews and university party were recommended what to wear, 150n lifejackets on board as an option. Tropical kit (I love that woman) could be claimed for as per esta code, but no pith helmets - they didn't like us taking the pith.  On vessels other than NERC ships it was pot luck . I am writing about late 60's to early 90's .Then HEALTH AND SAFETY  and  wearing of hardhats  on deck  was  the edict ,but still no overboard
precautions .

Steve Jones  BR 17  Nona Me

[Graham W]

Nice one, Peter (T) - absolutely hilarious! What will they think of next?!

How about this?  http://www.cremedelamer.co.uk/products/4127/Bestsellers  A small pot of seawater, grease and emulsifier for more than the cost of a Fladen suit.

it was one of those double-slider jobs which I don't see the point of.

Convenient access to your nether regions?

[Rob Johnstone]

Graham, I sometimes wonder what on earth have you been searching for on the web........

[Peter Taylor]

Flotation suits supplied by NERC  - luxury! I too was a NERC employee pre Southhampton move, as part of the scientific party we were issued with oilskins, thermals, balaclava,polo necked guernsey , for the Antarctic cruises , the crews and university party were recommended what to wear, 150n lifejackets on board as an option.

Hi Steve,
We first were introduced to Mullion X4's in 1984 when working in collaboration with scientists on the Metpost Noordwijk - a small fixed platform of the dutch coast that once had been a pirate radio station. Because the platform could not manoeuvre and pick you up if you fell in, flotation suits were de rigueur when on deck.  After that we adopted them for any of our scientists going to sea although it always struck me as odd that the ship's permanent  crew didn't get issued with anything as good!

How about this?  http://www.cremedelamer.co.uk/products/4127/Bestsellers  A small pot of seawater, grease and emulsifier for more than the cost of a Fladen suit.

Mmm - I've got sea water, sea weed, therapeutic mud etc. surrounding the jetty; all I need is a food blender and some plastic pots - voila... cremedelaitchen!