LEE HELM

[JOD]

And by the way. when I have raised questions with the builder I was referred to this Owner's Association site.

[johnguy]

Hi JOD  I hope a bit of mast rake will cure your problems, but in my experience it simply made a boat which already sailed well sail a bit better. You describe your boat sailing like a pig, which seems odd, given the well proven good sailing of bayraiders. Is there something more fundamental wrong, like rudder not right down? Or jib attached in wrong place? The way you describe it sounds just like when my rudder was half flipped up.
Cheers

John

[Matthew P]

Hi JOD

This problem must be very frustrating for you, not helped by some of us not fully understanding the problem. Could you just confirm what sort of rig you have please; Bermudan (a.k.a on open Bayraiders as  "American"), gaff or other and is your jib self-tacking or conventionally sheeted?  Is the jib a standard size or bigger than normal? A photo would help too.

I'm not as expert as others on this forum but, for what it's worth, Gladys my BR20 (2008 GRP, gaff main/self tacking jib) behaves well in spite of my crude rig adjustments. Provided Gladys is heading vaguely into wind I can make her head into or away from the wind by sheeting or releasing the mizzen sheet.  When pointing I have the mizzen quite tightly sheeted, more or less on the centre line of the boat.  Balance is good and tacking easy. 

I adjust the main mast shrouds so the rake is the parallel to the mizzen mast when viewed from the side about 20 mtrs away.  Hardly precise but it doesn't seem to be very critical.  Especially when, despite my efforts to tension the shrouds and the jib halyard, I always get plenty of slack in the leeward shroud.  Apart from a shackle coming loose and attempts to ram things the mast has not fallen own yet so I've learned not to worry about it.

The exception is when I don't notice the rudder is near horizontal, at which time steering feels as though the rudder is a barn door.  I think this effectively moves the hull centre of area back, so lee helm results.  The rudder might be horizontal because of striking an obstruction, or because I did not pull hard enough on the rudder down-haul to lower it before sailing off or I forgot to pull it down after launching off a shallow beach.  If the jamming cleat on the tiller gets worn it can slyly release the rudder down-haul without me noticing.

If the rudder down-haul is incorrectly routed through the rudder bracket or runs over jammed pulleys it can be very hard to pull down fully.  If the rope is routed correctly and freely it still requires a firm pull but makes a satisfying clunk when down properly, saving me the bother and risk of a comedy-moment when leaning over the transom to check.

Rudder down-haul may not be the problem but there must be a solution, Bayraiders are well behaved in normal circumstances.  Please let us know when you've solved it.

Matthew
BR20 Gladys

[johnguy]

Hi JOD

I might have a good reason why the rudder is not going down fully and you may not have noticed. I have just spent a less than life enhancing couple of hours and two skinned knuckles putting the rudder and tiller assembly back on after a repair to the cheeks. I found then that the blue uphaul rope is very length sensitive. I put it back as was, so I thought, but the rudder would simply not drop fully vertical with its usual happy clunk. Only a few mills of shorter on the knots and the rudder looked from above down and felt down, but was actually when seen from the side at quite an angle. Fiddling with knots on a cord cut exactly to length after factory rigging is not so exciting or easy but finally got enough length in it for rudder to work properly. So worth a check before thinking mast rake, is it a rudder not fully down thing caused by factory tying off blue uphaul line a tiny tad short? Hope that helps, John

[Graham W]

If you look at the attached underwater photo of the rudder, the leading edge appears to tilt forward.  Matthew's 'satisfying clunk' is the best indication on my boat that the rudder has dropped fully.  It takes quite an effort to get it down in one.

[JOD]

It's A BR20 gunter main.
Well, this is the update although recent posts have raised even more queries so I cannot regard the position as entirely clear yet. I raked the mast back by what seems to me a substantial amount and the lee helm is gone. I can sail with neutral helm and can tack. I spent a lot of time checking how the sails set and how the mizzen affected balance and tacking. All went well but as it was quite windy and I am on a tidal mooring and didn't want to get caught out during this exercise in view of the previous experience, I didn't set the jib. I thought I had cracked it and didn't feel that I needed to confirm the situation with the jib set but, in view of the posts confirming that the boat sails well with a dead upright mast and the fact that the manual refers to pulling the halyard tight (which was how I had set it originally) and the picture of the shroud lacing shows around 4 inches of string (whereas mine is down to about 2"), I can't be so sure now. As I agree that all the info is about raking the mast to improve the boat not to cure lee helm and, of course, the boat can't have been designed in this way (nor have owners experienced it) so I remain concerned. As currently rigged there is a 6mm gap between the forward end of the mast base and the deck. Clearly this is another indicator of a problem as the advice for setting says the base of the mast should be parallel with he deck.
Thinking to when I bought the boat (second hand) I had difficulty raising the mast to fully upright as the shroud lacing was tight so it had been sailed previously with significant mast rake.
The centreboard is fully down. It would be hard to check whether the rudder is positioned correctly but it clunks down in a way that suggests that it is and seems well down by looking at it but, although the position of the rudder might affect the feel on the tiller, it is unlikely to be the cause of lee helm.
I want to thank everyone for their input. That no one else has this problem is very reassuring for the integrity of the design so it looks like this is a unique issue to me and my boat. I'll try contacting the previous owner and see what info he has.

[Llafurio]

.... it looks like this is a unique issue to me and my boat. ...

If your boat is "Pauli", No. 16, it's not your boat I can assure you. I sold "Pauli" to a german party of owners during a trade show in Hamburg. As they were in my marina we stayed in direct contact during theitr ownership, and there were no issues with the boat.

[Graham W]

I don't think the boat in question is  'Pauli', which was bought by Måns (Uluxtax) for sailing in the Stockholm area.

I recognise the barn door effect from when my rudder has kicked up, usually because I haven't secured the downhaul properly.  I don't remember it causing lee helm but after a few minutes of heavy steering, cramp in your tiller arm should draw your attention to something being amiss.

[Robin]

Some new observations on this topic. I have just had a new suit of sails. They are not Hyde but a replace that the yard used whilst Hyde had a supply issue. Well made and exactly the same cut. However....i noticed a V neutral helm and a tacking angle of about 90 degrees. Increasing the mast rake has helped but not fully so. I wonder why this is. Weather helm is increased by a billowing main but the wide tack angle should surely be much less with a flat sail?
Has anyone else had similar experience with new sails?

[Llafurio]

Robin:

Since they started the BRs, SwB/SwY have gone through different sailmakers and mainsail cuts. (I am talking about the Gunter mainsails here, not the USA Bermudans.)

On my first BR the sails were fine, on my second BR the mainsail was baggy and hopeless in raid races because of its poor tacking angle. You may well be right that you have one of the baggy mainsails.

However, as this thread is about lee helm, I wish to say, that IMO the lee helm has nothing much to do with the mainsail cut. It has to do with the mast rake, and then again with the centerboard angle. If the centerboard angle is not checked by a physical inspection of the inside of the centerboard case, one cannot be sure that the board is really "full down" when the uphaul rope suggests it is.
Because, the centreboard "down position" is defined or limited by one small eight-knot in the uphaul pulley system, and that stopper knot may well be in a slightly wrong position, due to human error during assembly.
That is what I found out, when my BRE initially went to lee badly, and I could not correct that through changing the mast rake.
Again, you better know the inside of your centerboard case. I know the centerboard case is glued shut, but that does not mean that inside there all is perfect. Better check.
CR

P.S.
I forgot: the BR 20 hull, underbelly and sail balance were not designed for the boat to have a bowsprit. The current bowsprit mania came in later when buyers wanted more ropes to pull than simply enjoy sailing with a completely self tacking rig.
I never had a bowsprit on my BRs, but it seems plausible to me that these added bowsprits have induced a further lee tendency of the BRs.
CR

[Robin]

Interesting stuff. I have had the centreboard out, it having suffered damage so I clearly need to see what it is doing on the water with the case cover off and check it is fully down.  I did have to remould the bottom corner of the leading edge but I would be surprised if the laminar flow was upset that much. My boat is a BrE Bermuda rigged, and I hope the new sail is flat!
Thanks for advice.
Robin